This whole M6 Toll Road Terror Thing

**go_slow** · 07-07-12, 06:30

Quite baffled by it all. Woman see's someone blowing smoke into a bag, goes into a panic and phones the police. Traffic gets stopped, armed police turn up and escort every one off the bus, every thing and every held up for a few hours. And the bomb disposal team were there, ambulances, fire engines all showed up.

Over reaction by the police or a measured response to what could have been a potential terrorist incident?

Personally I get the feeling from the opinions people are spouting that the police et al are damned if they do and damned if they dont. If that had been a real incident and they had just told the woman "Don't worry madam, even terrorists won't travel by megabus ha ha" or not turned up then imagine the hue and cry. Yet because it wasnt you have the huge outrage of "what if there was someone needing that ambulance/fire engine, imagine the colateral deaths, the police over reacted".

**coulson73** · 07-07-12, 06:42

Originally Posted by go_slow

Quite baffled by it all. Woman see's someone blowing smoke into a bag, goes into a panic and phones the police. Traffic gets stopped, armed police turn up and escort every one off the bus, every thing and every held up for a few hours. And the bomb disposal team were there, ambulances, fire engines all showed up.

Over reaction by the police or a measured response to what could have been a potential terrorist incident?

Personally I get the feeling from the opinions people are spouting that the police et al are damned if they do and damned if they dont. If that had been a real incident and they had just told the woman "Don't worry madam, even terrorists won't travel by megabus ha ha" or not turned up then imagine the hue and cry. Yet because it wasnt you have the huge outrage of "what if there was someone needing that ambulance/fire engine, imagine the colateral deaths, the police over reacted".

From what I can recall of the incident (yep a few days ago, but hey on nights), she reported that she saw a person pour a liquid into a container and then saw smoke.

If that is actually was reported, then seems a reasonable response, considering the liquid bomb plot in the past.
If it was just a case of it being reported that she just saw smoke, then should have just informed the driver. But I wasn't on the coach so don't know the exact circumstances that were reported.

But yes, damned if do, damned if don't.

**Fruity** · 07-07-12, 06:42

Originally Posted by go_slow

the police et al are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

This ^.

I don't think it's a real over-reaction, given the methods and tactics used by the last suicide bombers in the UK: I think it's remarked upon the more by the public as we're (in general) not used to seeing such incidents being dealt with on a regular basis in the UK.

**BananaMan** · 07-07-12, 06:44

I think it was something of an over-reaction. By a number of people.

But it's obviously difficult to be sure, we don't know exactly what anyone really saw, etc. And hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I'd probably rather there were a few inconvenient false alarms, than something slipping through the net. Although I am not sure if this kind of thing really stops the few that get through...

But it is true that there IS too much paranoia in the world these days.

**TimB** · 07-07-12, 06:46

Isn't this one of the aims of terrorists though. Get people so worked up and living in fear that they panic at the most innocuous things.

Plus the fact that the meedja love controversy and outrage sells papers.

**go_slow** · 07-07-12, 06:47

Originally Posted by BananaMan

I'd probably rather there were a few inconvenient false alarms, than something slipping through the net.

I think that was my point really.

Originally Posted by BananaMan

Although I am not sure if this kind of thing really stops the few that get through...

Sadly those charged with protecting us have to be lucky all the time, the terrorists only need to be lucky once to slip through the net.

**Fruity** · 07-07-12, 06:59

Originally Posted by BananaMan

I think it was something of an over-reaction. By a number of people.

As you've noted, we don't know the content of any calls to the emergency services regarding the initial incident. What we do know is that the incident involved a large vehicle on a motorway, with a large number of people on board, and potential for other vehicles to become involved too, through collision or explosion. When you start to consider the potential risks of stopping and controlling vehicles and passengers on a motorway carriageway, then it's easy to see why you need numerous members of the emergency services to do it safely.

**BananaMan** · 07-07-12, 07:06

Originally Posted by go_slow

Sadly those charged with protecting us have to be lucky all the time, the terrorists only need to be lucky once to slip through the net.

We need a "kind of" emoticon, I think ... maybe ...

The thing is, yes, you are right, if the actual aim is to kill or maim a small group of innocent people, then they do only "need" to be "lucky" once ...

But if the actual aim is what they always claim it to be - and whoever and wherever they are; it's usually some form of "justice" - they need a lot more rolls of the dice to go in their favour. In discussions, courts, publications, public demonstrations, and so on.

And because that's too difficult to achieve, they go down the terrorism route.

Ironically, if their objectives were any good, they would be able to convince more people, more quickly. So in a way, terrorism is a clear sign that the aims and objectives are not good. It's almost a theorem.

There are a few arguable cases - Northern Ireland, Israel-Palestine, and South Africa spring to mind - where it could be more complex than that. But it doesn't change the fact that political discussion, and mobilisation of popular support, and democracy, are better than violence. Always. And it is an illusion to imagine that terrorism is always quicker ... the saddest illusion in life.

**Thermostat9** · 07-07-12, 07:17

Originally Posted by go_slow

Quite baffled by it all. Woman see's someone blowing smoke into a bag, goes into a panic and phones the police. Traffic gets stopped, armed police turn up and escort every one off the bus, every thing and every held up for a few hours. And the bomb disposal team were there, ambulances, fire engines all showed up.

Don't forget the racist element.

Megabus scare: where there's smoke, beware of brown men on buses

**Didge** · 07-07-12, 07:38

'Proportionate response?' Christ on a bike!

This incident, and those like it, make this country a fuckin' pathetic joke.
Every cuddly wuddly beary beary boo in a hi-vi, has become a paranoia riddled drone, and this trickles down to the more idiotic members of the public, who believe every bit of over-zealous bull-shit that government officials and their lackys come out with.

Most of the blame for this crap, lies at the feet of the previous bunch of Labour control freaks, and the jokers who are in parliament now. Creating fear, and then using that fear to enact 'anti-terror' laws, that are consistently used well outside the spirit of said laws, when in fact, terrorists could be prosecuted under the normal criminal laws.
There is no need to keep bringing out legislation that is just an invitation for officious little men in uniform to abuse the public. (The many photographer incidents are typical examples).

More people die of accidents in the home, on the road, insect bites etc, than from turrrists.

If the reports of police pointing guns at members of the public are true, I despair, I really do.
If this shit carries on much longer, (and it will, with every official from government down, running around like headless chickens, due to the upcoming Olympics), it's only a matter of time, until we have another Charles de Menezes.

Fucking pathetic!

**go_slow** · 07-07-12, 07:44

Originally Posted by Thermostat9

Don't forget the racist element.

Megabus scare: where there's smoke, beware of brown men on buses

Well yes. I've worked out how to get the seat next to me free on a budget airline - I get on the plane as soon as possible, SWMBO grabs the window seat, I grab the isle seat and start praying quietly using prayer beads. No one ever grabs that middle seat, on a recent flight it was the only free seat on the flight.

**Fruity** · 07-07-12, 07:47

Originally Posted by Didge

More people die of accidents in the home, on the road, insect bites etc, than from turrrists.

More people are murdered by people they know, than by terrorists, and the emergency service response for many of those incidents can be fairly intensive too, especially where there's a chance of preventing a murder.

The emergency services also deal with road-related deaths too, often closing roads as a result. Not much chance of preventing any individual one of those at the time though, I suppose.

**Nordboy** · 07-07-12, 08:06

Originally Posted by Didge

'Proportionate response?' Christ on a bike!

This incident, and those like it, make this country a fuckin' pathetic joke.
Every cuddly wuddly beary beary boo in a hi-vi, has become a paranoia riddled drone, and this trickles down to the more idiotic members of the public, who believe every bit of over-zealous bull-shit that government officials and their lackys come out with.

Most of the blame for this crap, lies at the feet of the previous bunch of Labour control freaks, and the jokers who are in parliament now. Creating fear, and then using that fear to enact 'anti-terror' laws, that are consistently used well outside the spirit of said laws, when in fact, terrorists could be prosecuted under the normal criminal laws.
There is no need to keep bringing out legislation that is just an invitation for officious little men in uniform to abuse the public. (The many photographer incidents are typical examples).

More people die of accidents in the home, on the road, insect bites etc, than from turrrists.

If the reports of police pointing guns at members of the public are true, I despair, I really do.
If this shit carries on much longer, (and it will, with every official from government down, running around like headless chickens, due to the upcoming Olympics), it's only a matter of time, until we have another Charles de Menezes.

Fucking pathetic!

And yet..... Terrorism arrests: car carrying weapons stopped by chance - Telegraph

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If it had been a bomb, some fecker would be moaning that their trip to the shops was inconvienienced by bloody terrorists, killing people. Most reports of suspicious activities and people do not get this response. How often does this happen? not very.