Sats and Inequality

I was really pleased when I got my daughters Sat's results and saw it put her well into the top 20% in the country according to my research. Then I looked a bit further and realised close to 70% of the kids in her year were going to be in the top 20%.

So this disparity might be covered by the state offers: "An equal opportunity for unequal people". In other words the kids at her school are well above average to start with but apparently the school also did exceptionally well in terms of value added. I am not sure that measure however is wholly accurate but it indicates a good school. When I have met the teachers they seem adequate but when one is not parents make sure the headmaster knows about it and most of the parents are confident middle class typoes who do not fear authority.

What I noticed is that working class less educated parents are intimidated by teachers and take a fatalistic attitude to their childrens education. Middle class parents who use state education get heavily incolved and demand that they recieve a good service or effectively complain until they get it. They are the squeaky wheel that gets the oil but they also keep those who provide the service under pressure and scrutiny.

If we had bought a cheaper house in a cheaper area we could have afforded private education. I am ideologically opposed to it though. Just becase I am not paying for it directly people like me and of my ilk still demand and expect a first class service. We also value public services and despite most of the parents being higher rate tax payers I doubt any vote conservative as they value state education and the NHS above pottential tax cuts and see value for money.

If we are going to have the highest standards in public services we have to learn to expect and demand them. It is not enopugh to just to go around muttering about it fatalistically.

Originally Posted by Yarbles

If we are going to have the highest standards in public services we have to learn to expect and demand them. It is not enopugh to just to go around muttering about it fatalistically.

That might very well be true.

Which made a welcome change from much of the rest of your post ...

I thought it was because you lived in a Labour constituency and they threw wedges of cash at the school to prove they could be improved? Pretty much gave you a free private school.

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Originally Posted by Yarbles

If we are going to have the highest standards in public services we have to learn to expect and demand them.

And pay for them.

Originally Posted by Veggie Dave

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I wish, at my kids school they hide poor achievement so that parents don't complain. One honest supply teacher opened several parents eyes to poor performance just after the regular teacher told them all that there kids were doing well. It didn't help that the lessons were frequently taught in Lithuanian.

Originally Posted by BananaMan

That might very well be true.

Which made a welcome change from much of the rest of your post ...

So that implies I don't know what I am talking about I wonder if your going to be able to back that up in any way.

I demonstrated the point through example. What I pointed out is I hear moan moan the school is rubbish and then you ask so what are you doing about it. At the previous school my duaghter attended a minority of educated confident people formed a parents group which raised standards monitored the situation and Lobbied the local authority and thier local MP's and the dept of education and the minister so that improvements were made but it was hard work as this was about 15 parents out of school of close to 300 kids. Go to a school where most of the parents are middle class and you have to spend a fortune in time campaigning just to be elected a school governor. Now do working class parents care less about education or are busier. I dont think so but the meek fatalistic attitude is what holds them back and a failure to grasp what education is about. When I explained to one who moaned about the standard in maths that I gave me duaghter extra maths homework to supplement she looked at me like I was Hitler FFS.

Basically when it comes to the market if you don't like Heinz Beans you can buy Cross and Blackwell etc or Tesco. When it comes to public services you need to be politicised to the point of making sure via the many means to have your voice heard that you get good service. You don't just have to go around feeling inferior becase you cant afford to go private or blame the government.

People will not get the better life they aspire to until they stop acting like a bunch of ignorant sheep and empower themselves.

Originally Posted by Veggie Dave

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Knuckle Draggers .

BTW even at private school you can see a big difference between those who are supported at home and those who arn't. Obviously parents have to be involved in their childrens education but it is nice and reactionary for for some to point the finger at the chav's who I forget they are allot closer to than I am.

Just a clue though if a school is full of disruptive kids and irresponsible parents that is something that someone has to deal with and that takes more thought and imagination than just blaming someone. However if your a clod hopping half witt shit kicker well thats about as much thought as your going to put in. Thats my opinion of those who are really more the problem than the solution until they start engaing their brains and think beyond thier simple minded reactionary understanding of the world.

If you have low quality parents and children in a school then that school needs allot of help to deal with that additional workload. No doubt many feel that is too expensive but the cost of letting another generation of anti social ignoramouses through the system must be higher in the long run.

Unfotunately the current system has allowed people to ghettoise but accoriding to various people I have met who work in education and arn't trapped in a decades out of date mentality if you get a reasonable cohort of say as little as 40% supportive educated middle class families that can transform the morale of a school. I am sure if government would enforce the exising rules and take a leaf out of Hackney's book where schools must take equal numbers of band A,B,C and D children we educated middle class could better share the burden of educating all you Muppets and Chav's.

No offence but I did leave a reasonable time for someone to say soemthing insightfull and intelligent

Overall though you can see in the interests of fairness I think the people with something to contribute should not be allowed more than is practical to concentrate themselves in the best schools and I am in tune with "The Learning Trust" in making the decision to prevent this.

Originally Posted by Yarbles

So that implies I don't know what I am talking about I wonder if your going to be able to back that up in any way.

I think he was referring to the horrible sentence structure that dominates in your posts. I'm not perfect in this respect either, but you really should try harder.

Regarding your OP, I think you have hit on something that I tend to agree with. Parental involvement - not like the cartoon Veggie Dave posted, but actual participation in the process by parents. When all this was green fields my parents, both of them, attended PTA meetings regularly and made it a point to know my teachers. Unfortunately Veggie Dave's cartoon is representative of today's parental participation.

This weekend my niece's little boy was playing with my mother's antique spinning wheel. At first he was just spinning the wheel as I did when I was his age (2+ y.o.). Then he began lifting the whole wheel out of the fork. His dad intervened by placing the wheel back in the fork with not so much as a word. A few minutes later the little lad emerged with one of the wood spokes in hand. His dad informed me that he removes them regularly and did fuck all about it. I gave him a softish 'no' while removing the spoke from his grip and placed it on the mantle to keep it from getting lost so I could glue it back in later. Moments later I heard him break out a second spoke. He emerged with that in hand (the spinning wheel is parked behind the TV). I got up, took it from him and gave a stern 'no' with his name attached. This was followed by tears and his dad glaring at me. He didn't go near the thing for the rest of the evening. Earlier he'd been handed a slice of pizza which he marched about with and subsequently dropped. Face down on the carpet. No response from his mother. I'm suspicious that he'll be one of those kids that isn't permitted to experience his own failures. No doubt this leads to well rounded adults.

I don't see much difference between parents who move to expensive houses in small catchment areas and those who pay for independent schools.

Though a minority of the former will claim the higher moral ground and not see the irony.

Originally Posted by Yarbles

So that implies I don't know what I am talking about I wonder if your going to be able to back that up in any way.

Well, as an exercise of my slightly irreverent sense of humour, I'm going to back it up with a quote. A quote from ...you.

Originally Posted by Yarbles

In other words the kids at her school are well above average to start with but apparently the school also did exceptionally well in terms of value added. I am not sure that measure however is wholly accurate ...

I am fairly sure that such measurements are seriously flawed, when embedded within the context of a semi-competitive market system. That doesn't mean that it's all meaningless, just that drawing conclusions about what decisions to make in terms of any proposed action, is highly likely to be flawed. Especially over the long run.

Originally Posted by Yarbles

but it indicates a good school.

That's the bit that's questionable. It's what they want you to believe, obviously. But it is at least questionable. And in any case, even if it were true, I'm not sure it can help pin down the correct courses of action for any specific individual.

Let's not blow it up out of proportion though. I think we do agree that education is important, and there should be substantial public funding to support it. And substantial involvement by parents and carers. And that individual inputs from teachers, headteachers, and supporting staff of all kinds, do matter.

I was just quibbling. Which I have been trained and educated for.

Interesting OP. One I am passionate about.
I firmly believe that when two kids arrive at juniors.. one is the 7th child of a well know family he is dressed in hand me downs, has nits and a snotty nose and is free school meals, the other child has brand new uniform and satchel, brylcreamed hair new lunchbox, pressie for the teacher, and he alsready has good reading skills and knows his times tables.
Guess who goes on the top table and who goes on the bottom table.. (and oh yes they do have them)
The teacher will have a preconception from day 1.
When I studied sociology we looked at an experiment where a school was told a new child was coming to them who was exceptionally bright .. (he wasnt he was average) .. amazingly that child excelled at all his tests etc..
funny that..

Originally Posted by Yarbles

I was really pleased when I got my daughters Sat's results and saw it put her well into the top 20% in the country according to my research.

Didn't Tony Bliar organise things so that 80% of children were in the top 20%?

Originally Posted by Yarbles

Knuckle Draggers .

BTW even at private school you can see a big difference between those who are supported at home and those who arn't. Obviously parents have to be involved in their childrens education but it is nice and reactionary for for some to point the finger at the chav's who I forget they are allot closer to than I am.

Just a clue though if a school is full of disruptive kids and irresponsible parents that is something that someone has to deal with and that takes more thought and imagination than just blaming someone. However if your a clod hopping half witt shit kicker well thats about as much thought as your going to put in. Thats my opinion of those who are really more the problem than the solution until they start engaing their brains and think beyond thier simple minded reactionary understanding of the world.

If you have low quality parents and children in a school then that school needs allot of help to deal with that additional workload. No doubt many feel that is too expensive but the cost of letting another generation of anti social ignoramouses through the system must be higher in the long run.

Unfotunately the current system has allowed people to ghettoise but accoriding to various people I have met who work in education and arn't trapped in a decades out of date mentality if you get a reasonable cohort of say as little as 40% supportive educated middle class families that can transform the morale of a school. I am sure if government would enforce the exising rules and take a leaf out of Hackney's book where schools must take equal numbers of band A,B,C and D children we educated middle class could better share the burden of educating all you Muppets and Chav's.

No offence but I did leave a reasonable time for someone to say soemthing insightfull and intelligent

Overall though you can see in the interests of fairness I think the people with something to contribute should not be allowed more than is practical to concentrate themselves in the best schools and I am in tune with "The Learning Trust" in making the decision to prevent this.

You just cant help yourself can you not even a subject as easy as education to get agreement can be posted by you without you resorting to your usual comments about Ilks, muppets and Chavs being directed at the rest of us..In the meantime you still offer no proof that you are personally anything other than a fat moron hiding behind your keyboard..and the phrase No offence..well guess what ..? some of us Chavs and Dimwits who have managed to produce daughter through state schools with 10 X A-C GCSE's are offended by your generalisations..... just once in your life stick to a topic without your little digs....In the words of another well known Troll...Go on I dare you...................

No offence but I did leave a reasonable time for someone to say soemthing insightfull and intelligent

You first..
And considering we've all got you on ignore and can't see your posts until quoted how long is 'reasonable'??