Track preparations..

[Weeksy]

How will you know if it is better or worse without a measurement.

It's a bit like someone give you access to the national grid and then picking a setting that'll give mrs miggins at number 42 lower bills without knowing what she is consuming, where, when and how.

If i throw some random numbers together and then put in the notes, "'05 R1, exup removed, should be mint mate" does that make that map ok for your bike? because basically you're putting your faith for a good running engine in what someone you've never met has stated.

Not scare mongering just pointing out the ludicrousy of this decision to download a suitable map based on the notes attached to it.

No, because his is an 03

[Claude]

No, because his is an 03

Damn beaten to it!

[X81]

Be interested to know how many bikes have a 'race can' fitted and how many of those have had the fuelling set up for them.
Don't see many(any?) 'engine knackered' threads do you?
Not saying its not worth getting the bike set up, but I think we may be 'over playing' the risk somewhat...

Most won't go bang unless they are extremely lean but excessive bore wear is quite common resulting in an engine that deosn't really respond to further tuning.

I.e. take an engine that makes 100bhp and runs 8% too lean yet "feels" ok. This owner in 10k miles decides to fit a full system. It is quite likely that this engine will not show a huge gain for that fitment as the engine has worn itself out to just about make 100bhp.

Take an identical engine that also makes 100bhp but is remapped/jetted to get it running right. It now makes only 102 bhp but in 10k miles time the owner adds a full system and now when rejeted/mapped it makes 110bhp. The engine still has good compression seals, good valve seating and good piston wear.

So no most engines won't go pop but there is a hell of a lot more involved in an engine and it producing power than just "is it dead?" "nah well it must be mint then"

Far from it. Too many times i've seen engines that have been worn out too quickly due to this ignorance and disbeleif of people like me. It's each owners choice as to what they do obviously but an engine and how it makes power is lieterally the sum of all its parts and if some of the more crucial ones are worn out then it ain't making power.

On most engine i get barrels replated to a piston clearence of 0.0015" and will write an engine off in terms of responding to tuning if they get to 0.004". A rizla fag paper is 0.0015" thick to give you an idea of just how thin we are talking here and this willl be on pistons from 70mm to 100mm diameter.

[X81]

No, because his is an 03

Oh ok i'll change it to '03...........................does it make my point less valid?

[Claude]

Right so it's more for squeezing every last drop of performance out of it, which could be argued is wasted on the road?

Edit:
My post seem agenda driven or trying to make a point, they're not I'm just curious to opinions

[X81]

Right so it's more for squeezing every last drop of performance out of it, which could be argued is wasted on the road?

No it's more to do with not wearing your engine out and consuming oil and losing power, the amount it woul dhave originally been supplied with btw.

Why do people think that mapping and jetting is about peak power? It's got very little to do with that and everythign to do with making an enigne run smoother, possibly cooler, possibly reduce loads on crank and big end shells, gear box loads, chain wear and even tyre wear can all be affected by getting a bike set up properly.

Did you read anything i wrote in my last post before replying?

Most people have this disbeleif that a rich running engine is probably ok as opposed to lean, ever seen what happens ot an engine that has been run too rich for too long?...................bore wash, fucked rings, fucked piston skirts and fucked valve seats oh and higher runnign costs anyway for burning too much fuel.

What i do is about performance but of the whole package from idle to the red line in every thottle position not just flat out.

[Claude]

It's a shame you're not closer

[The Martian]

How will you know if it is better or worse without a measurement.

It's a bit like someone give you access to the national grid and then picking a setting that'll give mrs miggins at number 42 lower bills without knowing what she is consuming, where, when and how.

If i throw some random numbers together and then put in the notes, "'05 R1, exup removed, should be mint mate" does that make that map ok for your bike? because basically you're putting your faith for a good running engine in what someone you've never met has stated.

Not scare mongering just pointing out the ludicrousy of this decision to download a suitable map based on the notes attached to it.

how will I know if its better? By riding it and thinking / feeling what the bike is doing? Not accurate as a dyno by any stretch but I can feel if a bike isnt running right to a point until I get it custom mapped by one of you fellows with the big box of tricks to do it properly..

Im only going to search through what is available on the PC website, not what someone who may or not be a knobber has posted up somewhere.

[The Martian]

Oh ok i'll change it to '03...........................does it make my point less valid?

Change it to '02 if you're going to

your point is valid, but you seem to assume everyone else is an idiot because they are not an expert. Im aware that a little knowledge is more dangerous than none in these sort of things, so Im not going to do anything silly and stick to tried and tested stuff from Dynojet as I am not an expert.

that said, your input is greatly appreciated as you seem to know your shit, dont think Im not paying attenetion because I am

[The Martian]

It's a shame you're not closer

awww!

:grouphug:

[Weeksy]

awww!

:grouphug:

He didn't mean you

He meant the bloke who knows about bikes.

[The Martian]

He didn't mean you

He meant the bloke who knows about bikes.

I know, but you could feel the love, right?

[X81]

It's a shame you're not closer

I can't be near everyone but i get customers driving 2-300 miles to come to me regular as clockwork let alone the guys who drive down from scotland or from the channel islands to get me to map their bikes and build their engines. People go where they are happiest and where they feel their requests will be properly understood, if that brings people to my door then of course i'm happy and distance doesn't seem to bother them

how will I know if its better? By riding it and thinking / feeling what the bike is doing? Not accurate as a dyno by any stretch but I can feel if a bike isnt running right to a point until I get it custom mapped by one of you fellows with the big box of tricks to do it properly..

Im only going to search through what is available on the PC website, not what someone who may or not be a knobber has posted up somewhere.

My big box of tricks can be bought by anyone, simply buying a dyno doesn't mean you're any good in using it. My main box of tricks is the squidgy thing between my ears and the 13 years i've been using a dyno.

So this arse dyno of yours, it can tell whether something is rich or lean, by how much and at exactly which of the 8 throttle positions yeah?

Unique skill, i need a laptop, dedicated PC, throttle lock, dyno and lambda sensors to work all that out.

Like i said most maps consist of having fuel taken out not actually put in but some bikes can actually feel like they run ok up to 10% too rich or 7% too lean. when you correct the fuelling you suddenly find great improvements. On carbs you can to a degree use an arse dyno and a good head of knowledge to narrow down and iron out issues by riding a bike but not really on injection.

Change it to '02 if you're going to

your point is valid, but you seem to assume everyone else is an idiot because they are not an expert. Im aware that a little knowledge is more dangerous than none in these sort of things, so Im not going to do anything silly and stick to tried and tested stuff from Dynojet as I am not an expert.

that said, your input is greatly appreciated as you seem to know your shit, dont think Im not paying attenetion because I am

I'm not assuming everyone is an idiot, everyone seems to be assuming that what i do and controlling fuel systems is extremely simple and because you get given a cable to plug into your laptop and can ride a bike that suddenly you have all the tools to do a job like mine.

I've had this same conversation numerous times over the years and everyone thinks they have a great arse dyno and can ride a bike well enough with enough repeatability to then get off track and write a map......................honestly speaking never has a bigger load of bollox been spouted from he mouth of a bike rider. We can all tell when a bike is miles out but i seriously doubt if you'll be able to feel when it is 6-10% out n either direction....................you will however feel when it is 6-10% better.

To put this in a context that everyone undertsands and that everyone does, how would you check your tyre pressures, using a trusted gauge and doing some research or by pumping them up and kicking them to see if they're full enough..................on this subject that is what you're saying sounds like to me, and every time isee similar threads and lack of knowledge it is what i see. You're just going to download random maps by looking at them, looking for what i have no idea, and then load them into your bike and see how it feels.

The time and effort involved would surely be better spent going to a dyno i would have thought.

[The Martian]

I can't be near everyone but i get customers driving 2-300 miles to come to me regular as clockwork let alone the guys who drive down from scotland or from the channel islands to get me to map their bikes and build their engines. People go where they are happiest and where they feel their requests will be properly understood, if that brings people to my door then of course i'm happy and distance doesn't seem to bother them



My big box of tricks can be bought by anyone, simply buying a dyno doesn't mean you're any good in using it. My main box of tricks is the squidgy thing between my ears and the 13 years i've been using a dyno.

So this arse dyno of yours, it can tell whether something is rich or lean, by how much and at exactly which of the 8 throttle positions yeah?

Unique skill, i need a laptop, dedicated PC, throttle lock, dyno and lambda sensors to work all that out.

Like i said most maps consist of having fuel taken out not actually put in but some bikes can actually feel like they run ok up to 10% too rich or 7% too lean. when you correct the fuelling you suddenly find great improvements. On carbs you can to a degree use an arse dyno and a good head of knowledge to narrow down and iron out issues by riding a bike but not really on injection.



I'm not assuming everyone is an idiot, everyone seems to be assuming that what i do and controlling fuel systems is extremely simple and because you get given a cable to plug into your laptop and can ride a bike that suddenly you have all the tools to do a job like mine.

I've had this same conversation numerous times over the years and everyone thinks they have a great arse dyno and can ride a bike well enough with enough repeatability to then get off track and write a map......................honestly speaking never has a bigger load of bollox been spouted from he mouth of a bike rider. We can all tell when a bike is miles out but i seriously doubt if you'll be able to feel when it is 6-10% out n either direction....................you will however feel when it is 6-10% better.

To put this in a context that everyone undertsands and that everyone does, how would you check your tyre pressures, using a trusted gauge and doing some research or by pumping them up and kicking them to see if they're full enough..................on this subject that is what you're saying sounds like to me, and every time isee similar threads and lack of knowledge it is what i see. You're just going to download random maps by looking at them, looking for what i have no idea, and then load them into your bike and see how it feels.

The time and effort involved would surely be better spent going to a dyno i would have thought.

Again, I appreciate your input / experience etc. As I have said, I know its more than a box of tricks you need the knowledge to use tools properly.
My 'arse dyno' is probably passable for a carbed bike and little more than a guesstimate for injection I understand, Im not getting carried away, like I also said I know a little knowledge is worse than none with these things. Until I have the time to go to a decent dyno place and can get it mapped properly I will look to see if there is a map which matches my bike setup, that is all, I will look for a map on the dynojet website for one, if there isnt then it will stay as is for now as its definitely better than before and as soon as I get a chance / before it does too many miles like this I will get it done.

I know you have been through this before but I am not ignorant and as such know my limits, I dont think Im a tuner just because I can plug a laptop into my bike but I can use common sense until such time I can get an expert like yourself to sort it properly.

[Trumps]

cuddly wuddly beary beary boo trumps a fanny every time. Result

Oi!