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Thread: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    to get the peg down without the knee meant that I was making the bike do a LOT of leaning which puts more pressure through the tyres and the geometry etc - whereas if I leaned off the bike more and my knee went down, the bike would be more upright and, hopefully, less likely to crash!!!
    This idea that if the bike's more upright, you've more in hand isn't quite as simple as often made out. You need to think in terms of angular momentum - that is, the mass of bike and rider combined as they go round in a circle, just like a conker on the end of a string. If you hang off, you reduce the lean angle of the bike but if you're turning the same amount of mass on the same radius at the same speed, you're actually generating the same amount of angular momentum*. The tyres are doing the same amount of work to keep the machine turning, you're just using a different part of the tyre to do the job!

    * Almost - there is a small reduction due to the change of height of the combined centre of mass if you hang off into the turn but it's pretty small. It might be significant on the track when you're racing and trying to squeeze every iota of grip out of the tyre, but for most of us, it's a negligible factor.

    But it does increase ground clearance


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  3. #32
    Should Get Out More Noggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    This idea that if the bike's more upright, you've more in hand isn't quite as simple as often made out. You need to think in terms of angular momentum - that is, the mass of bike and rider combined as they go round in a circle, just like a conker on the end of a string. If you hang off, you reduce the lean angle of the bike but if you're turning the same amount of mass on the same radius at the same speed, you're actually generating the same amount of angular momentum*. The tyres are doing the same amount of work to keep the machine turning, you're just using a different part of the tyre to do the job!

    * Almost - there is a small reduction due to the change of height of the combined centre of mass if you hang off into the turn but it's pretty small. It might be significant on the track when you're racing and trying to squeeze every iota of grip out of the tyre, but for most of us, it's a negligible factor.

    But it does increase ground clearance
    I think the instructor was quite concerned about the ground clearance - he looked a bit horrified when I said I'd got the peg down at that point!!

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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    I think the instructor was quite concerned about the ground clearance - he looked a bit horrified when I said I'd got the peg down at that point!!
    Not surprised... there's not much left after that

    Unfortunately, the smaller you are, the more you have to move off the machine to reduce its own lean angle because your own body mass is a smaller proportion of the combined mass of bike and rider.

    I don't know just how you hang off but one of the heaviest bits of the body is the head, so if you adopt a Marquez-style head-down, elbow-dragging riding position you may find you're able to lean the bike less.

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    Should Get Out More Noggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Not surprised... there's not much left after that

    Unfortunately, the smaller you are, the more you have to move off the machine to reduce its own lean angle because your own body mass is a smaller proportion of the combined mass of bike and rider.

    I don't know just how you hang off but one of the heaviest bits of the body is the head, so if you adopt a Marquez-style head-down, elbow-dragging riding position you may find you're able to lean the bike less.
    I'm 5' 7" so should be ok. But I seem to have relatively short legs on a bike - or I just ride bikes that are too big for me! (This has been said before, at which point everyone else runs for cover!!). I've been learning to lean off better but when I learnt to ride fast originally, it was on the blackbird and I really struggled to move much because of the size of it!!

    Am getting much better on the body position - still don't like sticking my knees out but I guess that with two bad knees, I'm more wary than I should be!!

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    Should Get Out More Yorick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    I think the instructor was quite concerned about the ground clearance - he looked a bit horrified when I said I'd got the peg down at that point!!
    The most important part of a corner is the exit. That's when you need to do everything you can to get the bike as upright as possible, to be able to get as much power down as possible on fat part of the tyre.

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  8. #36
    Should Get Out More Noggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorick View Post
    The most important part of a corner is the exit. That's when you need to do everything you can to get the bike as upright as possible, to be able to get as much power down as possible on fat part of the tyre.
    I think I'm getting better at that bit. Not sure I'm doing it 'right' but I do push the bike more upright coming out and then get myself back on straight once everything is settled. It's working so far

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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorick View Post
    The most important part of a corner is the exit. That's when you need to do everything you can to get the bike as upright as possible, to be able to get as much power down as possible on fat part of the tyre.
    Same on the road... although it's less about power down, and more about shiny side up and staying on the tarmac

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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    I'm 5' 7" so should be ok. But I seem to have relatively short legs on a bike - or I just ride bikes that are too big for me! (This has been said before, at which point everyone else runs for cover!!). I've been learning to lean off better but when I learnt to ride fast originally, it was on the blackbird and I really struggled to move much because of the size of it!!

    Am getting much better on the body position - still don't like sticking my knees out but I guess that with two bad knees, I'm more wary than I should be!!
    Tom Sykes doesn't move around all that much, if you watch him. I used to know the guys behind Phase One Endurance, the twice World Endurance Champions. Russ Benny, who ran the team and originally rode for it, used to wear out two sets of sliders in a season. Steve Bateman, who rode with him, used to wear out two sets each race. And they were riding the same bike

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    Should Get Out More Noggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Tom Sykes doesn't move around all that much, if you watch him. I used to know the guys behind Phase One Endurance, the twice World Endurance Champions. Russ Benny, who ran the team and originally rode for it, used to wear out two sets of sliders in a season. Steve Bateman, who rode with him, used to wear out two sets each race. And they were riding the same bike
    Yup - I have seen the differences. I mostly like the way I ride but I believe the bike would probably be happier if I could improve my body position which in turn would give me more confidence in/on the bike


    Anyway - I appear to have hijacked the thread Sorry x

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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    Yup - I have seen the differences. I mostly like the way I ride but I believe the bike would probably be happier if I could improve my body position which in turn would give me more confidence in/on the bike


    Anyway - I appear to have hijacked the thread Sorry x
    Shouldn't you Doley types be watching Jeremy Kyle or summat?

  14. #41
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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorick View Post
    Shouldn't you Doley types be watching Jeremy Kyle or summat?
    Rotten sod!!! I'm off to see an accountant to set up for next season. AND I've been working this morning to help a friend out!!

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    Default Re: Toe down=knee down on a supermoto?

    Peg down is closer, but then if you lean your supermoto like a sports bike then maybe you should go for a street bike

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