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Thread: Driverless car trials

  1. #376
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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Which is why I don't expect to see them launched . . . allowed to spread far and wide of their own accord.

    I have little 'inside knowledge' of current plans of even a couple of the uk trials. /\ That is just a guess.
    http://www.marshall-leasing.co.uk/bl...utonomous_cars

    David Wright, director of strategic initiatives at Coventry University, said autonomous cars would likely be able to handle potholes as the technology developed, but mass adoption would require dedicated lanes, particularly in urban areas.

    " I think, to make it work, we are likely to have to see dedicated autonomous lanes in cities.
    "It's an opportunity, not to increase congestion, but to increase traffic density. If we've got control over certain restricted areas for autonomous vehicles, then they can travel very closely together"


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  3. #377
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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Re expectation that they will be involved in collisions:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...n-public-roads

    Aside from safety, insurance is the other big challenge. Experts are predicting a*shift from a fault-based, or tort liability, system*– in which companies pay according to each party’s degree of fault – to a product liability system. Data recorders (“black boxes”) will help establish whether the vehicle technology or the driver is to blame in the event of an accident. Insurance premiums are expected to drop, with young male drivers, who currently pay the highest premiums, likely to benefit most.Eugensson said: “There needs to be a quick [claims] process for the customer ... If the car was clearly at fault, the insurance company can pay the customer and we speak to the insurance company” and cover the damage.
    "Insurance premiums are likely to drop"... unlikely in the extreme... someone has to pay for the claims, regardless of how they are framed. I would expect the big car companies to have the muscle to resist attempts to shift the burden to them... and even if they don't manage that, they will simply build the cost into the price of the car. Payouts still have to be paid for...

    In any case, insurance companies spread the costs of huge payouts (Irma?) over the entire business they handle... yes, they'll load particular areas (flood risk homes) but any significant reduction seems unlikely - in any case, the chances of the insurance companies resisting the chance of making more profit seems unlikely.

    What I have been doing is posting info here to inform.
    It hasn't come over that way. You've been posting very one-sided information, most of which is either based on guesses about what could happen or seems to say "we'll throw lots of money at the problems and they'll go away".

    I think it's reasonable to expect that machines will make mistakes too. I don't think I've ever said otherwise.
    Hmm... maybe try re-reading the thread. My concerns have been exactly that... but it's not what I've read into your responses.
    Last edited by The Spin Doctor; 18-09-17 at 12:38.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    .............. mass adoption would require dedicated lanes, particularly in urban areas.
    Oh great !

    Empty bus lanes.
    Empty cycle lanes.
    And now they are going to create even more 'dedicated' lanes to 'ease congestion'.

  5. #379
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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    And potentially fallible in the same ways! A TV news reporter was heard to comment about the 'Wrong type of daylight' [from the rail 'Wrong type snow' etc] after one autonomous system failed to identify its surroundings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Think of the current generation of vehicles as learner/novice drivers (albeit ones who don't get tired or inebriated). I wonder whether they'll mimic 'real' learners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    For anyone interested, a few links plucked almost at random from Google:

    https://www.wired.com/2016/02/google...d-first-crash/

    Google's self-driving car caused its first crash on February 14, when it changed lanes and put itself in the path of an oncoming bus.

    In an accident report filed with the California DMV on February 23 (and made public today), Google wrote that its autonomous car, a Lexus SUV, was driving itself down El Camino Real in Mountain View. It moved to the far right lane to make a right turn onto Castro Street, but stopped when it detected sand bags sitting around a storm drain and blocking its path. It was the move to get around the sand bags that caused the trouble, according to the report:

    "After a few cars had passed, the Google AV began to proceed back into the center of the lane to pass the sand bags. A public transit bus was approaching from behind. The Google AV test driver saw the bus approaching in the left side mirror but believed the bus would stop or slow to allow the Google AV to continue. Approximately three seconds later, as the Google AV was reentering the center of the lane it made contact with the side of the bus."

    Google's car was in autonomous mode and driving at 2 mph at the time of the crash. The bus was driving at about 15 mph, per the report. No injuries were reported, but the front left wheel and fender of Google's car were damaged.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...-failures.html

    Google's driverless cars have needed hundreds of human interventions to stop accidents and failures

    Report from tech company shows 13 near-misses and 272 technology failures in 15 months, although rate is declining


    https://www.fastcompany.com/3055356/...they-are-safer

    A first-of-its kind study from Virginia Tech Transportation Institute found that the crash rate for self-driving cars is lower than the national crash rate.


    The study was commissioned by Google, which is developing self-driving cars and testing them on roadways in Mountain View, California, and Austin, Texas.

    The data took into account the severity of crashes, and it adjusted for unreported incidents. The researchers concluded that the national crash rate of 4.2 accidents per million miles is higher than the crash rate for self-driving cars, which is 3.2 crashes per million miles. The institute describes these findings as “reversing an initial assumption” that autonomous cars would have a higher incident rate.

    The study also found some evidence that the self-driving cars were less likely to incur severe crashes, but it lacked sufficient data to draw a firm conclusion.


    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/26/uber-...suspended.html

    Uber Technologies Inc suspended its pilot program for driverless cars on Saturday after a vehicle equipped with the nascent technology crashed on an Arizona roadway, the ride-hailing company and local police said.

    The accident, the latest involving a self-driving vehicle operated by one of several companies experimenting with autonomous vehicles, caused no serious injuries, Uber said.

    Even so, the company said it was grounding driverless cars involved in a pilot program in Arizona, Pittsburgh and San Francisco pending the outcome of investigation into the crash on Friday evening in Tempe.
    As far as page 4.

    Hardly all positive and 'one sided'! Maybe try re-reading the thread?
    Last edited by Horse; 18-09-17 at 14:23.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    "Insurance premiums are likely to drop"... unlikely in the extreme... someone has to pay for the claims, regardless of how they are framed. I would expect the big car companies to have the muscle to resist attempts to shift the burden to them... and even if they don't manage that, they will simply build the cost into the price of the car. Payouts still have to be paid for...

    In any case, insurance companies spread the costs of huge payouts (Irma?) over the entire business they handle... yes, they'll load particular areas (flood risk homes) but any significant reduction seems unlikely - in any case, the chances of the insurance companies resisting the chance of making more profit seems unlikely.
    My feeling is that autonomous vehicles won't be allowed in the wild until they are safer, probably much safer, than the human operated vehicles they'll be replacing. If they can be shown to be let's say 10 times safer, why would there be a problem with insurance? How much is the typical insurance premium these days? £500 or so? If the vehicles are 10 times safer I can envisage two scenarios:
    1. The manufacturers could easily absorb the £50 insurance in the cost of the vehicle, possibly by paying a premium to a third party underwriter.
    Or
    2. If, as you say, the insurance companies can't resist the opportunity of making a profit the typical insurance premium would come down to £100 or less.

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  8. #381
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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    There will be so much monitoring equipment recording that 'crash for cash' will be a heck of a lot harder to get away with!

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by saga_lout View Post
    My feeling is that autonomous vehicles won't be allowed in the wild until they are safer, probably much safer, than the human operated vehicles they'll be replacing. If they can be shown to be let's say 10 times safer, why would there be a problem with insurance? How much is the typical insurance premium these days? £500 or so? If the vehicles are 10 times safer I can envisage two scenarios:
    1. The manufacturers could easily absorb the £50 insurance in the cost of the vehicle, possibly by paying a premium to a third party underwriter.
    Or
    2. If, as you say, the insurance companies can't resist the opportunity of making a profit the typical insurance premium would come down to £100 or less.
    Just wait till someone in the US successfully sues the manufacturer of an autonomous vehicle because it 'can't crash'.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Just wait till someone in the US successfully sues the manufacturer of an autonomous vehicle because it 'can't crash'.
    Well, with Uber, Tesla, Google, Ford, and others all developing systems in the US, it shouldn't take too long!

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Just wait till someone in the US successfully sues the manufacturer of an autonomous vehicle because it 'can't crash'.
    I'm pretty sure that Ford, GM, VAG, Toyota, Nissan, BMW et al all know about product liability. I don't know how they handle it, whether they assess the risk and underwrite it themselves or pass the risk on to a third party insurance company but whatever they do, you can bet they'll have it covered.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by saga_lout View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Ford, GM, VAG, Toyota, Nissan, BMW et al all know about product liability. I don't know how they handle it, whether they assess the risk and underwrite it themselves or pass the risk on to a third party insurance company but whatever they do, you can bet they'll have it covered.
    They comply with legislation, not speculative legal cases. Many product liability cases test new aspects of liability, which often lie outside existing legislation. That's what US class actions are usually about and the results of a court decision can clobber manufacturers. I am sure they have contingency funding, but that pot of cash still has to come from somewhere.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    http://fortune.com/2015/10/07/volvo-...-driving-cars/ Oct 2015

    For Volvo Car Group, the answer to the first question is "us." Volvo Car Group President and CEO Håkan Samuelsson said Thursday that the company will accept full liability whenever one of its cars is in autonomous mode. Samuelsson, who made the comments during a seminar on self-driving cars, said Volvo is "one of the first car makers in the world to make such a promise."

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/omriben.../#7b96718048fb Sept 2016

    Google, and Mercedes-Benz have already pledged to accept liability if their vehicles cause an accident.

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    http://fortune.com/2015/10/07/volvo-...-driving-cars/ Oct 2015

    For Volvo Car Group, the answer to the first question is "us." Volvo Car Group President and CEO Håkan Samuelsson said Thursday that the company will accept full liability whenever one of its cars is in autonomous mode. Samuelsson, who made the comments during a seminar on self-driving cars, said Volvo is "one of the first car makers in the world to make such a promise."

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/omriben.../#7b96718048fb Sept 2016

    Google, and Mercedes-Benz have already pledged to accept liability if their vehicles cause an accident.
    And you can bet the lawyers are already filling in a long list of 'except when...' exclusions.

    How about "except when the vehicle in question has not been serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations or by an approved service agent"?

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    And you can bet the lawyers are already filling in a long list of 'except when...' exclusions.

    How about "except when the vehicle in question has not been serviced in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations or by an approved service agent"?
    Isn't that illegal in the UK?

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    Default Re: Driverless car trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Isn't that illegal in the UK?
    You can't compel someone to use an official dealer (though various manufacturers tried hard by encoding the engine management data - but the EU outlawed that a couple of years ago).

    But that's a very different case from honouring a warranty claim without a fight when you've either carried out the work yourself or taken it to an independent.

    And a product liability claim is another fish in a completely different kettle.

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