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Thread: The Brexit bottom line ...

  1. #8971
    Should Get Out More demographic's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    It's somewhat ironic that the severe financial issues British Steel is facing is the carbon tax they have to pay to the EU.

    <edit> scrub that, the EU are calling it a "fine". Same thing I guess. Pay money to the EU, go bust.
    The dumb fucks could have avoided that anyway cos they sold a load of carbon tax permits thinking they wouldn't need em.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    It's somewhat ironic that the severe financial issues British Steel is facing is the carbon tax they have to pay to the EU.

    <edit> scrub that, the EU are calling it a "fine". Same thing I guess. Pay money to the EU, go bust.
    Not quite that simple.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47921375

    In short, because we have breached the 2 year time limit without an agreed deal, companies aren't getting the carbon credits to settle previous years' liabilities. No Brexit, they'd have been fine. Agreed deal, they'd have been fine. So the issue is the inability of HMG to agree a deal that Parliament can approve. And that's why they needed money, to pay for the right to pollute in the previous year.

    Now it's about EU customers not ordering as much from them. I know. Who'd have thought that leaving the EU would cause issues with trade between the EU and the UK. I mean, surely they need us more than we need them. Did they not get the memo?

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by demographic View Post
    The dumb fucks could have avoided that anyway cos they sold a load of carbon tax permits thinking they wouldn't need em.
    Not quite. See BBC link.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    It's somewhat ironic that the severe financial issues British Steel is facing is the carbon tax they have to pay to the EU.

    <edit> scrub that, the EU are calling it a "fine". Same thing I guess. Pay money to the EU, go bust.
    A fine they wouldn't have had to pay were it not for Brexit.
    In a typical year, the company could have expected its annual free allocation of carbon permits in February, which it could then put toward its payment obligations. But EU officials suspended Britain’s free carbon permits from Jan. 1 as part of no-deal Brexit contingency planning.
    As for why it's in trouble, orders have dried up. It's not just BS who are in trouble though.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...d-a-half-years

    Britain’s manufacturing sector has suffered the worst slump in orders for more than two and a half years as the car and textile industries struggled against Brexit headwinds.

    The CBI said its industrial trends monitor for May showed that without an agreement with the European Union, the manufacturing sector was gripped by “economic paralysis” and moving “ever closer to disaster”.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    The global structural changes in steel production are reflected in this chart.


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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Oh.Oh. I know. Why don't we just stick a tariff on that cheapo Chinese steel, stop them from dumping their problems onto us at a loss they can afford.

    I guess otherwise the Government could just subsidise our steel industry.

    Err... What do you mean the EU won't let us? Why is that?

    I appreciate it is a failing industry for any number of reasons and you can't just keep subsidising a private entity (it's not a bank ) but it is not just "because Brexit".

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Oh.Oh. I know. Why don't we just stick a tariff on that cheapo Chinese steel, stop them from dumping their problems onto us at a loss they can afford.

    I guess otherwise the Government could just subsidise our steel industry.

    Err... What do you mean the EU won't let us? Why is that?

    I appreciate it is a failing industry for any number of reasons and you can't just keep subsidising a private entity (it's not a bank ) but it is not just "because Brexit".
    Because some EU countries don't make steel so they like cheap imported steel?

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Oh.Oh. I know. Why don't we just stick a tariff on that cheapo Chinese steel, stop them from dumping their problems onto us at a loss they can afford.
    The EU did, back in February The UK voted in favour.
    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/pre...steel-products

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Err... What do you mean the EU won't let us? Why is that?
    Wasn't this one of the reasons even before this current issue?

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver
    Oh.Oh. I know. Why don't we just stick a tariff on that cheapo Chinese steel, stop them from dumping their problems onto us at a loss they can afford.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoonercat View Post
    The EU did, back in February The UK voted in favour.
    http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/pre...steel-products
    Your link refers to tariffs on US steel, not Chinese steel.

    A Commission investigation was launched in March 2018 as part of the European Union's response to the decision by the United States to impose tariffs on steel products.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by irie View Post
    Your link refers to tariffs on US steel, not Chinese steel.
    No, it refers to steel tariffs across the board, once individual quotas have been reached, ie you can import x amount before we apply tariffs. The US is mentioned heavily because its decision to impose tariffs on steel saw a large increase in the amount of steel coming into the EU, as the US was no longer an attractive place to export to.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Clearly there is a two step process where the EU decides what is in its best interest then the UK can support or reject that decision. Whether that would make any difference or not to the outcome is a moot point while we still have to obey EU directives. If we can escape from EU control, whichever government is voted into office will have to answer to the British public as to why they are keen to destroy our steel industry or become indebted to China. The wider community within the UK can get to decide what sort of society they want to enjoy via a democratic process.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Clearly there is a two step process where the EU decides what is in its best interest then the UK can support or reject that decision. Whether that would make any difference or not to the outcome is a moot point while we still have to obey EU directives. If we can escape from EU control, whichever government is voted into office will have to answer to the British public as to why they are keen to destroy our steel industry or become indebted to China. The wider community within the UK can get to decide what sort of society they want to enjoy via a democratic process.
    Do you really believe that's what would happen, I think it's more likely that whoever is in Government will pay more attention to the people that contribute to their political party than the British public, sadly the reality of British politics is that everything is for sale to the highest bidder.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian_Boolean View Post
    Do you really believe that's what would happen, I think it's more likely that whoever is in Government will pay more attention to the people that contribute to their political party than the British public, sadly the reality of British politics is that everything is for sale to the highest bidder.
    Yes, in fact I believe that is what is happening now. The Tory party is typically funded by the wealthy landowner, big business etc. which is all well and good until it becomes transparently obvious they are not returning the favour and contributing to the general wellbeing of the society which supports them. The internet and the rise of social media has seen to that and times are different now.

    So much so that many democratic systems are having to form coalitions and somehow "gang up" on "popularist" unaligned parties which are labelled as "extreme right wing", their supporters castigated for being "gullible" and led by fake news or manipulated by some third party (usually "the Russians"). Also interesting to note that since these minority parties don't necessarily have a relatively small number of fabulously wealthy supporters (!), the main political parties are starting to attack funding from the much larger numbers of smaller donations, calling it "cheating" or somehow "illegal".

    Be interesting to see how that strategy flies.

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    Default Re: The Brexit bottom line ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Oh.Oh. I know. Why don't we just stick a tariff on that cheapo Chinese steel, stop them from dumping their problems onto us at a loss they can afford.
    1 - They have.

    2 - When it was originally proposed, one major country opposed severely restricting the importation of Chinese steel. The UK. Karma's a bitch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    I guess otherwise the Government could just subsidise our steel industry.

    Err... What do you mean the EU won't let us? Why is that?
    Actually, the state aid issues here are quite complex. Where there is a will, there is usually a way. The issue is that there isn't a will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    I appreciate it is a failing industry for any number of reasons and you can't just keep subsidising a private entity (it's not a bank ) but it is not just "because Brexit".
    1 - No, you can't. You can't just subsidise anything ad infinitum if it is structurally loss making. And that's not just the EU that says that.

    2 - The nationalisation of RBS was one of the biggest mistakes this country has ever made. If you look at what the US did, they subscribed for preference shares and got their money back rather quickly. We will never get our money back from RBS since the politics have driven what they can do, and what they do will not make money. They would have been better to separate out the retail banking from the investment banking, bail out the retail bank and cut the investment bank loose to do what it could.

    Another was forcing through a merger of HBOS with Lloyds even though the price had basically been set by government prior to any due diligence had been done. They basically took one bad business and forced it on another that couldn't bear the weight of it, screwing over that business as well. They may have averted the crisis that day, but they just pushed it out a bit, and probably lengthened it.

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