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Thread: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

  1. #241
    Should Get Out More Mussels's Avatar
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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster


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    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Read the linked article in my post immediately before yours.
    I got as far as 'airplanes are living things' and decided that it wasn't even trying to appear factual.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Mussels View Post
    I got as far as 'airplanes are living things' and decided that it wasn't even trying to appear factual.
    Persevere. Here's an example quote:

    "In Jakarta, a graybeard captain, speaking to me on the condition of anonymity, described the attitude of the new owners toward their pilots. He said: “The pilots passed the check ride! They can fly the airplanes!” Also, in some owners’ view, the semiannual simulator training is wasteful because the simulators are costly to run and maintain, and while the pilots are playing around in them (while collecting their pay), they are not out producing revenue. Normally two pilots train in a simulator at a time, with an instructor seated behind them — so, three in the box. I was told that in Indonesian simulators, there are sometimes seven in there: two pilots flying, one instructing and four others standing up and logging time."
    Last edited by Horse; 19-09-19 at 21:37.

  3. #243
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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Persevere. Here's an example quote:

    "In Jakarta, a graybeard captain, speaking to me on the condition of anonymity, described the attitude of the new owners toward their pilots. He said: “The pilots passed the check ride! They can fly the airplanes!” Also, in some owners’ view, the semiannual simulator training is wasteful because the simulators are costly to run and maintain, and while the pilots are playing around in them (while collecting their pay), they are not out producing revenue. Normally two pilots train in a simulator at a time, with an instructor seated behind them — so, three in the box. I was told that in Indonesian simulators, there are sometimes seven in there: two pilots flying, one instructing and four others standing up and logging time."
    That sounds 100% factual, so job sorted

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    I won't go to the trouble of registering to read it again, but the 2 Lion Air pilots had, what, only 6,000hr+ flying time apiece?

    The simulator didn't simulate the effort required to move the trim wheel at high IAS so even if they'd had lots of 'proper' simulator time, the Ethiopian Air pilots would have still come across a novel (and ultimately fatal) issue.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneerly Down View Post
    I won't go to the trouble of registering to read it again, but the 2 Lion Air pilots had, what, only 6,000hr+ flying time apiece?
    Odd, I didn't have to register.

    Anyway 'hours' is a red herring. To (approximately) quote a US motorcycle trainer: " Before I trained as a motorcop, I'd ridden for 21 years. I had one year experience, repeated 20 times".

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneerly Down View Post
    I'm not convinced a natural feel for flying necessarily includes switching off the electric trim adjusters.
    Even when the Ethiopian Airlines crew did follow the procedure and 'cuttout' the electric trim they couldn't physically manually adjust the trim (it is difficult to do so on the 737 at high air speed) so turned them back on again to be able to use the electric trim adjuster but that then reactivated MCAS (using the electric control only pauses MCAS for 5 seconds before it reactivates) and each time it reactivates it allows itself another 2.5deg trim adjustment.

    The linked report criticises the pilot(s) for asking the AT controllers what speed and altitude they were at, but the AOA sensor failure causes, among others, both altitude and speed 'disagree' alarms.

    I'm sure we'd all rather be flown by experienced pilots with a natural flair for flying, but I think it is very wrong to be piling blame on these, now deceased, pilots.
    I agree...my point was more that
    the company wasn't encouraging intuitive stuff, iyswim, and pushing for revenue....

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by davidat19 View Post
    the company wasn't encouraging intuitive stuff, iyswim, and pushing for revenue....
    That article contrasts the attitudes to innovation of Boeing and Airbus.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Odd, I didn't have to register.
    Nor, for the first time of reading, did I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Anyway 'hours' is a red herring. To (approximately) quote a US motorcycle trainer: " Before I trained as a motorcop, I'd ridden for 21 years. I had one year experience, repeated 20 times".
    So what isn't a red herring - the article was complaining about pilots flying with little experience and low hours?
    The airplane/Boeing let the pilots (and the passengers) down.

    The plane was delivered with an electronic system that didn't allow the pilots to fly, a manual over-ride that didn't allow the pilots to fly and a simulator that didn't accurately simulate the issues.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneerly Down View Post
    So what isn't a red herring - the article was complaining about pilots flying with little experience and low hours?
    Apologies, I misunderstood that your comment "what, only 6,000hr+ flying time apiece" was a sarcastic 'only'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kneerly Down View Post
    The plane was delivered with an electronic system that didn't allow the pilots to fly, a manual over-ride that didn't allow the pilots to fly and a simulator that didn't accurately simulate the issues.
    Yup, IIRC all aspects included in the article.

    [The simulator training is actually the tip of a bigger concern over 'surprise' incidents. The article notes that pilots new exactly what scenarios they'd face and how to react, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6109944/ ]

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    The article notes that pilots new exactly what scenarios they'd face and how to react, e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6109944/ ]
    Unfortunately the simulator had a manual trim wheel that they could turn, whereas in real life they were unable to do so...and hence crashed.

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  12. #251
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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    Remember when your biggest worry was getting your scarf caught in the rudder?

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    More problems for Boeing. Thin edge of a wedge, perhaps.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/sout...grounding.html

    Southwest Airlines pilots sue Boeing over 737 Max grounding.

    Southwest Airlines’ pilots filed a suit against Boeing on Monday, saying the aircraft manufacturer misled the airline’s labor union about the plane, which has been grounded for nearly seven months after two fatal crashes

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    On the plus side for Boeing, the WTO is allowing the USA to impose 10% tariffs on Airbus* due to finding illegal subsidies were given to Airbus.

    * More importantly 25% tariffs on Scottish single malt whisky from 18 October.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    It'll be interesting to see how the EU responds to this. Imposition of tariffs isn't something that needs to be approved by the WTO or anyone else. And with a "Trump Slump" looming thanks to the trade war he has already kicked off with China it's not like America can afford to play with fire. Boeing isn't so big it can take a reciprocal tariffs regime from the EU, and there are quite a few swing states that could be vulnerable in the run up to the presidential elections.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...rade-war-slump

    None of which is necessarily relevant to the problems of the MAX, or Boeing and the FAA's woeful attitude towards certification. And you can bet the FAA is now crawling over the self-certification of every single Boeing plane too.

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    Default Re: Aircraft: Boing 737 Max Disaster

    It gets worse.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...nd-misled-faa/

    Boeing’s MAX crisis deepened Friday with new controversy around an exchange of bantering texts between senior pilots that suggested Boeing knew as early as 2016 about the perils of a new flight-control system later implicated in two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that killed 346 people.

    The exchange of messages in 2016 between the two lead technical pilots on the Boeing 737 MAX program was released Friday after regulators blew up at the company for belatedly disclosing the matter. The messages reveal that the flight-control system, which two years later went haywire on the crashed flights, was behaving aggressively and strangely in the pilots’ simulator sessions.

    “It’s running rampant in the sim on me,” 737 Chief Technical Pilot Mark Forkner wrote to Patrik Gustavsson, who would succeed him as chief technical pilot. “I’m levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy. I’m like, WHAT?” (Spelling errors in the original.)

    The emails show how Forkner, though he had experienced this errant behavior of MCAS, later urged the FAA to keep information about the system out of pilot manuals and MAX training courses.

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