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Thread: Calling all the Engineers

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    Should Get Out More maccecht's Avatar
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    Default Calling all the Engineers


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    Chap on the Burgman forum has done an upgrade to his 650 which I really like. It is not without its pitfalls for example you need to drop out the pads to get the calliper off but that I can live with. The 650 brakes are adequate but putting 310 rotors on vastly improves the braking. Rotors from a Hayabusa are a straight fit but a bracket/adaptor is needed to refit the callipers to the bigger rotor. Now his looks overly complicated to me. It also raises the calliper up maybe the hoses are not long enough I have asked this. Now would a simpler bracket work I am thinking a simple stepped plate to bolt behind the fork as the callipers were and in front of the calliper as the fork was, so stepped. Hope that makes sense. Anyone see a problem with my theory.
    This is his setup
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2z6p5eu2k...N6128.jpg?dl=0

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    I think you need to be logged in to see the picture.

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    Should Get Out More maccecht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by cheb View Post
    I think you need to be logged in to see the picture.
    Try this
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2z6p5eu2k...N6128.jpg?dl=0

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Has he stepped the bracket so the calliper moves outward along the radius centre line of the disc.
    ie if you draw a line from the center of the wheel spindle outwards through the centre of the calliper

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    Should Get Out More Screwdriver's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    If you move the caliper down, you have to also move it further from the fork meaning your bracket will be a lot longer, further away from the existing mountings.

    My guess is they would be twice as long meaning the current fork lugs would experience twice the leverage from the braking forces and those braking forces would also be greatly increased due to the larger diameter rotor.

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    Should Get Out More a_morti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    If you're at the point of making caliper brackets, why put those crappy calipers back on?

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    If you move the caliper down, you have to also move it further from the fork meaning your bracket will be a lot longer, further away from the existing mountings.

    My guess is they would be twice as long meaning the current fork lugs would experience twice the leverage from the braking forces and those braking forces would also be greatly increased due to the larger diameter rotor.
    In response to your argument, that's what nearly all the supermoto boys did 'back in the day'. Personally went from a 260mm to 320mm disc with a caliper adaptor with no I'll effects.
    To my knowledge no-one had a caliper snap off in 'Norma' usage.

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    I wonder what the gyroscopic effect of having that larger disc fitted has on the steering?
    If you want a greater swept area for increased braking efficiency then maybe a different caliper with a larger pad area (6 piston tokico) might be the solution. But then you'd need a different master cylinder as well

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by sadlonelygit View Post
    In response to your argument, that's what nearly all the supermoto boys did 'back in the day'. Personally went from a 260mm to 320mm disc with a caliper adaptor with no I'll effects.
    To my knowledge no-one had a caliper snap off in 'Norma' usage.
    Well I never met a supermoto rider that you could possibly claim to be "normal" but we digress.

    I also did a lot of those conversions myself and one of the common features for all properly engineered brake conversions is they move the caliper the least possible distance from the mounting point using impossibly weird shaped bracketry. Radial brakes are a different kettle of fish and have substantially stronger mounting points due to the bolts being stressed so as to strengthen and stiffen the connection of the caliper. With non radial brake mountings, the caliper bolts merely clamp the caliper to an existing bracket, they are a lot less stiff inherently.

    So while you can increase the distance from the fork leg to the caliper, the mounting is already a bit wobbly and unlike a radial mounting is prone to flex and twist during braking. Extending the length of these wobbly mountings amplifies that design flaw and amplifies the loading on those little lugs, each of which being a brittle cast aluminium stub as thick as your thumb but with a hole drilled in it.

    The OP asked for problems with modifying a design and I am merely pointing some out. They might not snap off at all.

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    Should Get Out More maccecht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by a_morti View Post
    If you're at the point of making caliper brackets, why put those crappy calipers back on?
    Small wheel single sided callipers nothing else will fit in the space.

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by sadlonelygit View Post
    I wonder what the gyroscopic effect of having that larger disc fitted has on the steering?
    If you want a greater swept area for increased braking efficiency then maybe a different caliper with a larger pad area (6 piston tokico) might be the solution. But then you'd need a different master cylinder as well
    No room

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    If it's a sliding caliper it'll be on a separate backing plate. Can you make a another backing plate that spaces the caliper out further?

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    Should Get Out More maccecht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    If you move the caliper down, you have to also move it further from the fork meaning your bracket will be a lot longer, further away from the existing mountings.

    My guess is they would be twice as long meaning the current fork lugs would experience twice the leverage from the braking forces and those braking forces would also be greatly increased due to the larger diameter rotor.
    I see what you mean .The way he has done it works well as the braking force is applied to the calliper pushing it into the fork so not overly stressing the existing mounts. I am trying to simplify the mound by just stepping it to accommodate the fork mount and the calliper mount if that makes sense. The calliper can be positioned as his is. I do not have access to CNC machinery so the simpler the bracket the better
    Quote Originally Posted by khd View Post
    Has he stepped the bracket so the calliper moves outward along the radius centre line of the disc.
    ie if you draw a line from the center of the wheel spindle outwards through the centre of the calliper
    Agreed so less stress on the original mounts.

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    Should Get Out More maccecht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by cheb View Post
    If it's a sliding caliper it'll be on a separate backing plate. Can you make a another backing plate that spaces the caliper out further?
    Cheb typical twin piston slider on the burgman
    https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/.../front-caliper
    This is just hypothetical at the moment and would take some careful measuring after I find some discs to suit.
    If any one has any old discs lying about of any of these bikes even if they are shot they would be handy for templates. Happy to pay the postage.
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    The bracket I am think off is something like this it illustrates the step. Obviously does not need to be fancy like this.

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    Default Re: Calling all the Engineers

    Quote Originally Posted by maccecht View Post
    I see what you mean .The way he has done it works well as the braking force is applied to the calliper pushing it into the fork so not overly stressing the existing mounts. I am trying to simplify the mound by just stepping it to accommodate the fork mount and the calliper mount if that makes sense. The calliper can be positioned as his is. I do not have access to CNC machinery so the simpler the bracket the better
    If you take the bulk out of the bracket (between the lugs) you will weaken it considerably. Torsional flex is the problem, not the bending moment.

    Make it out of steel or titanium and it will be fine, make it out of aluminium and it will bee too weak with a simple step - even if you use a suitable grade.

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