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Thread: Counter steering

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Counter steering


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    Quote Originally Posted by RiceBurner View Post
    Once you're used to it, try it the other way around. Pull on the outer grip. Its gives you more 'feel' because you're sensing the pressure you're exerting with your fingers rather than your palms.
    Works for me anyway.
    It does work for some people but the ergonomics make it easier to push than pull.

    And one friend of mine deduced she was doing all her steering via the left hand in order to hold the throttle steady.

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Link for the 12%? Ta.
    I think it's Tony Foale's work... there used to be a very long and rather impenetrable PDF on his website.

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by rich6 View Post
    wikipedia: Countersteering: How_it_works

    which gets it from:


    Motorcycle Dynamics (Second Edition)
    by Vittore Cossalter | 2 Oct 2006



    Yes, wheel speed, diameter and mass dependant.


    Not to get too bogged down in the how, but just out of interest, if you just lean the bike by moving your weight, I assume the steering will move of it's own accord, due to gyroscopic effects or involuntary action of the rider?
    Another good book... if you're a mathematician.

    Tony Foale - a British bike engineer - built a test rig decades ago with counter-rotating wheels to cancel out the gyroscopic effect. He was measuring the forces directly.

  4. #34
    Should Get Out More Horse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Counter steering

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...jones-obituary
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/30/s...-daedalus.html

    If I can't find the 'Daedulus' bicycle article online, I'll upload a scan to Dropbox.

    Won't load . . .

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct...56729201379682

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  6. #35
    Should Get Out More Mad Ax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Ask someone to explain how they walk, they probably won't be able to do that either. If you start by lifting one leg you won't go anywhere.

    Walking is effectively a series of falls interrupted by placing a foot down before it's too late and using the momentum of the fall to arc the body weight up and over and into another fall.

    I like to think of countersteering in the same way. The bike, while upright and moving forwards, is balanced*. Isaac Newton tells me I can't lean the bike without applying an external force, however because the bike is moving, I can move the wheels away from beneath the bike by turning the steering. This causes the bike to become imbalanced and fall over. I correct this by turning the steering in the direction of the fall, either holding the bike in a constant radius or bringing the wheels back beneath the CoG to resume upright and straight riding. Tyre size and profile also plays a part here but the significant thing in countersteering is the balance of the direction of momentum against the force of gravity, which can only be adjusted by moving the wheels towards or away from the CoG. At least that's how I explain it to myself

    *but due to external factors it doesn't remain so. However road motorcycle geometry is designed such that if it leans in one direction, drag on the wheels causes the steering to turn into the lean, thus balancing the bike again. Tis why a bike sans rider will often carry on upright until it hits something. Gyroscopic forces also play a part here (very much so in keeping a bike carrying on in a straight line, especially if it's a 'conventional' bike with big heavy tyres). Tis also why a bike with big tyres feels like it wants to squirrel across a poor road surface and not hold a straight line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wossname View Post
    My grandchildren, who are all about 2 y o, are learning to ride balance bikes. It's interesting to see how quickly they learn to countersteer instinctively and skilfully, without realising that that’s what they’re doing.
    They don't realise how they're learning to walk either. The brain is comparing a set of wobble inputs against a set of muscle outputs and doing a whole lot of fine tuning. We all learn this when we learn to ride bikes as kids and it feeds into our motorcycle riding, although many of us never get the benefit of an explanation and, therefore, how to use it to our advantage.

    We never had those balance bikes when I were a nipper...

    Quote Originally Posted by Scootabout View Post
    On the subject of the debate about whether it's leaning or counter-steering wot does it, try sitting at a desk, with your hands resting on the edge of the desk. Then lean, first left then right. What do you feel though your hands in each case?
    I feel odd. Everybody is looking at me.

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Ax View Post
    <snip (TL/DR )>

    We never had those balance bikes when I were a nipper...
    I had a scooter, a proper one with big wheels, not one of these modern ones with the stupid, tiny wheels that look as if they'll get stuck in every little crack in the pavement. Looking back, that's probably why it only took me about 5 minutes to learn to ride a bike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Ax View Post
    I feel odd. Everybody is looking at me.
    Odder than usual?

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by saga_lout View Post
    I had a scooter, a proper one with big wheels, not one of these modern ones with the stupid, tiny wheels that look as if they'll get stuck in every little crack in the pavement. Looking back, that's probably why it only took me about 5 minutes to learn to ride a bike.

    :

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by slowsider View Post
    That's the one. All the other kids made fun of me for wearing a top hat etc but standards must be maintained.

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  13. #39
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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Try this:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kfl2ankm3c...0bike.pdf?dl=0

  14. #40
    Should Get Out More Horse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Ax View Post
    I like to think of countersteering in the same way. The bike, while upright and moving forwards, is balanced*. Isaac Newton tells me I can't lean the bike without applying an external force, however because the bike is moving, I can move the wheels away from beneath the bike by turning the steering. This causes the bike to become imbalanced and fall over. I correct this by turning the steering in the direction of the fall, either holding the bike in a constant radius or bringing the wheels back beneath the CoG to resume upright and straight riding.
    Good description . . . now, with the wheels off the ground!

    bmxlow.jpg

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Good description . . . now, with the wheels off the ground!

    bmxlow.jpg
    Is he counter- or contra- steering, can't quite tell from the photos.

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceBurner View Post
    Is he counter- or contra- steering, can't quite tell from the photos.
    I *think* that he's counter-steering 'right' on the ramp [1], initiating 'left', after which the wheel turns slightly 'left' [2], then in the air he gives the bars a hoik 'right' [3] and flips the bike around [4, 5].

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Cool video about counter steering. I hope it will be useful

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by OliverMatt View Post
    Cool video about counter steering. I hope it will be useful

    <snip>
    No. He doesn't know his subject: "Unlike regular bicycles where you turn left to turn left and turn right to turn right..."

    No you don't. See here, where I quote Wilbur Wright (you know, Orville's brother). He worked out countersteering well over a century ago: "...they first turned the handlebar a little to the right, and then as the machine inclined to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made the circle..."

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    Default Re: Counter steering

    Quote Originally Posted by saga_lout View Post
    No. He doesn't know his subject: "Unlike regular bicycles where you turn left to turn left and turn right to turn right..."

    No you don't. See here, where I quote Wilbur Wright (you know, Orville's brother). He worked out countersteering well over a century ago: "...they first turned the handlebar a little to the right, and then as the machine inclined to the left, they turned the handlebar to the left and as a result made the circle..."
    Muppet. Spam alert

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