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Thread: Hilltop Motorcycle tuning

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Exclamation Hilltop Motorcycle tuning


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    Decided to adjust the fuelling on the F800R and I fitted one of those fuel enrichner thing on Tuesday. First run into to work and it deffo felt worse, a bit too rich and laggy and flat in places. Now it seems to have sorted itself out and relearnt whatever it is it needs to relearn. Runs even better than it did before now and I'm pretty stoked with it. Still has the dip at 5k-ish, but only a remap is going to cure that. I'm just not sure it bothers me enough to lob out 300+ to Hilltop Tuning though?
    Last edited by Taipan; 04-07-19 at 15:47.

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    Should Get Out More couchcommando's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Before you go to hilltop seems other tuners are calling them out as smoke and mirrors

    https://www.facebook.com/Treetoptuning

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by couchcommando View Post
    Before you go to hilltop seems other tuners are calling them out as smoke and mirrors

    https://www.facebook.com/Treetoptuning
    A few people have said the narrow band oem o2 sensors could not provide the data required to turn in the open loop as they claim? However, a couple of guys on the BMW forum have sent in their ECUs and had a map installed which they claim changed the bike remarkably. Loses the notorious dip at c5k and smooths out the vibes? So many peopel swear by them too, including a couple of race teams I believe? Very strange...

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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    i posted my bmw f800 ecu to hilltop and was very impressed with the difference. bike pulled a lot harder. didnt see any before readings though.

    let me know how you get on with the higher seat. might look at getting it for mine

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by danbe View Post
    i posted my bmw f800 ecu to hilltop and was very impressed with the difference. bike pulled a lot harder. didnt see any before readings though.

    let me know how you get on with the higher seat. might look at getting it for mine
    I've been reading about Hilltop. Apparently Jeff/Geoff was a software guy before going into the bike business, and knows his stuff. He was something to do with PC PCB development? Anyway, the BMW GS guys love him and his tuning. What I don't get is why he won't supply before and after dyno runs and why he takes his AF readings off? Good to know you're pleased with the results and so many people are, I think I may well go down this route at soem stage. I'm concentrating on the ergonomics first though.

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Been looking into Hilltop a bit more and one of many threads on forums saying they cant do what they claim was sort of answered by Mark from HT. 1 & 2 being the interesting ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by HilltopMark
    We’ve been through all this tediousness before, but if it helps I’ll sum up again. In no particular order:

    1. It doesn’t matter whether other people with big budgets can or cannot remap these ECUs – by thinking about open loop/closed loop and the complexities of Alpha N/TPS mapping etc. you are looking in the wrong direction entirely. Maybe they are too.
    2. This is because we don’t do what other people do – they are ‘remappers’, meaning they rework OE software. We are software developers – we write our own engine management software.

    3. BMW bike ECUs are not made by BMW, and not all of the ECU is available to BMW.
    4. Bikes given by manufacturers to journalists to review often have maps that are not emissions compliant so that the bikes perform better. We know this because we’ve tested many of them over the years. It’s a bit of an open secret in the trade and I seem to remember Triumph accusing BMW of doing it a few years ago. Maybe someone with a better memory that me can confirm.
    5. The ‘massive gains’ we get are nothing of the sort. We could go much further but we don’t for road bikes as to do so would compromise component life. If a bike gains a big chunk from our tune it’s because the OE setup was poor for some reason. BMWs are pretty variable out of the box – there can easily be 15bhp or more between one stock S1000RR and another for example.
    6. We certainly have never claimed to have taken a 200bhp S1000 and made it into 235bhp with a remap.
    7. Why give credence to people who can’t access these ECUs but who saying what we do isn’t true? After all, they are hardly likely to say ‘no mate, we’re shit, you should go and spend your money with Hilltop’, are they?
    8. Any sufficiently misunderstood/advanced tech will appear as ‘magic’ to some. There is actually nothing magic about what we do, and – like a lot of elegant solutions – it’s relatively straightforward as a concept. The hard graft bit, which took Geoff many years, was making it work in the real world.
    9. We’re clearly not going to reveal too many technical details or it might give someone clever enough knowledge to work it out for themselves. Then we would have competition, and for obvious reasons we don’t want that.
    10. We work with a number of race teams in various series, including factory supported teams, and some big name riders. Bikes running our software have won multiple championships. Contractual obligations forbid me from discussing this in any detail but plenty of people on this forum have been in our shop when some very big name machines have been in there. Not bad for a ‘back street garage’ eh ��?
    11. We send ECUs all over the world, literally to every continent (well except Antarctica ;-).
    12. We regularly get people ‘fishing’ for info in various ways – from baiting on forums like this to posing as curious customers, and they go as far trying to nick our software by getting a bike programmed by us and then breaking into the ECU themselves afterwards. (We have a surprise for people trying to do that by the way). The most bizarre incident happened just a couple of weeks ago: a well-know superbike team came in, bringing in a race bike poorly disguised as a trackday bike.

    Anyway, what I’ve written above is the absolute most of a technical explanation we’re ever going to give on here, so you naysayers, would be competitors, curmudgeons, and Lib Dem voters will have to put the rest of the pieces of the puzzle together yourselves. Good luck ��. The rest of you carry on enjoying your bikes and I’m very, very grateful for the support you give us on these threads. Tea and Bourbons on us next time we see you.

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    And a quick remark about other tuners from Geoff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff
    Thanks for that Mark
    I will add this and then I’m going to go and do something far more useful with my time I don’t see their names on the side of championship winning superbikes I don’t see their names mentioned top media I don’t see their names mentioned worldwide as an industry leader I don’t see them sponsoring multiple championship winning teams so good night ride safe
    Geoff

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    Should Get Out More Weeksy's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    It's a tough one.. I'm still 100% that my KTM 690 was better after leaving their place, you can or anyone can say what they like about how true that is, but i'm not daft, i've ridden plenty of bikes and i'd ridden many many miles on the 690, it simply was a LOT better than before i took it to them.

    I know Joe19 rang them about his 790 and they said "Nah mate, the gains are not really worthwhile on it" which may have come after doing Trickys 790, but was very honest of them to say so.

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    Should Get Out More Supermofo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Loads of people seem happy with them. And I should imagine a straight tune from them probably does the job. And I'd guess that's what race teams have done. I can't imagine they get an adaptive map and then leave the bike for a season.

    But I think for me, too much is unexplained on the whole adaptive front which would be my only reason for using them over anyone else. Mainly this is because my 690 rides spot on so don't see a reason to mess with it though. Hilltop basically say they do magic and I guess it's up to you if you believe or not. If it's true then it's understandable that they don't want to reveal their secret but there's a lot of trust going on.

    There does seem to be a growing trend of other tuners pulling graphs showing really poor A/F ratios (Lamb Chop) or no gains (that FB link). Mark at BSD stopped short of saying it was crap but seem to cast doubts on any ability to do anything adaptive due to limitations on the hardware to read anything on the bike. Thus far no one has called BS on Hilltop openly in the industry until that FB thread mainly I think as Hilltop seem fairly ready to get all legal so it could get interesting to see where it goes. Lamb Chop pulled the Hilltop vid and also stopped short of saying anything bad about them, but the fuelling on his GSXR was shocking.

    Personally I'd hope they are legit and loads of happy punters would suggest there's something to it. But I've got to say I am interested to see more secret back to back before and after tests being done as that'll be the only way of knowing for sure.

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Yup, I was pretty dismissive of them, as they still keep the narrowband o2 sensors etc, but Mark addresses that a few posts back. Although race ECUs are different, he does have a lot of prestige clients and in that environment, if you were selling snake oil you'd be found out pretty quickly! On the road bike front there are, I'm guessing, thousands of happy customers as the forums like UKGser and the KTM ones seem to have only happy customers. That Lamb Chop guy is the only customer I've seen as a (understandably) unhappy one. There are plenty of doubters out there but his customers seem more than pleased with the results and there's two in this thread!

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    Should Get Out More Supermofo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taipan View Post
    Yup, I was pretty dismissive of them, as they still keep the narrowband o2 sensors etc, but Mark addresses that a few posts back. Although race ECUs are different, he does have a lot of prestige clients and in that environment, if you were selling snake oil you'd be found out pretty quickly! On the road bike front there are, I'm guessing, thousands of happy customers as the forums like UKGser and the KTM ones seem to have only happy customers. That Lamb Chop guy is the only customer I've seen as a (understandably) unhappy one. There are plenty of doubters out there but his customers seem more than pleased with the results and there's two in this thread!
    Just reading through a 30 page thread on the GS forum. Only at page 10 at the moment!
    https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showth...s-battle-is-on

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    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Supermofo View Post
    Just reading through a 30 page thread on the GS forum. Only at page 10 at the moment!
    https://www.ukgser.com/forums/showth...s-battle-is-on

    ouch!





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    Should Get Out More Supermofo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taipan View Post
    ouch!




    Well after reading all the pages here's a summary

    Some are convinced its awesome. Even if they were shown proof that it made no difference. Fair few happy with tunes.

    Some think it's bobbins, despite above. Some (few) unhappy customers. Questions as to why HT can't prove anything

    Some damning evidence of no changes, cut wires and claims of more proof and calls to back to back dyno as a challenge from....we don't know yet, but looks like a competitor or 2 (or more)

    HT offering money back to a couple of people and/or come in for chat bacon/tea and a 300 tune.

    Thread get's locked as it's gone 'General'

    So no one is any the wiser.

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  17. #13
    Should Get Out More Taipan's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    My summary too. Looking at this post makes me think its a probability. They have obviously remapped some bikes and keep the map and install it on your ECU as do other tuners. Reading that guys FB page, he really strips it back too and he clearly does know his onions and where to look for anything on each chip set/eprom. But the damnedest thing of all is, HT has many happy customers. If I had my ECU flashed i'd sure as hell know if the 4-5k dip had been removed...

    Quote Originally Posted by HinckleyHornet
    Why is the Engineer gets a hard time ? He asks legitimate questions of Neoviper , but gets no answers .. A lot of you dont listen .. I know Geoff and I know what he does , He has a generic map thats all and he drops over the original map , sometimes it works sometimes it does nt , he defiantly does nt need a Dyno for what he does .As in the case off the TT sting you can see he has no way of knowing what he has done . You lot keep paying the 300 odd pond for an Ebay tune after all its your money.

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    Should Get Out More Yorick's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taipan View Post
    ouch!




    In previous jobs, I had to read and decipher Hex dumps

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    Should Get Out More Weeksy's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's only another new bike thread!

    Quote Originally Posted by Taipan View Post
    ouch!




    But he's never ever said that the standard map would be different. He states his nap is completely separate from the stock map withing ECU. Therefore if someone reads the stock map on the bike before and after it will still be the same

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