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Thread: Is democracy dead?

  1. #16
    Should Get Out More Cousin Jack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?


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    Quote Originally Posted by MsignorMartinez View Post
    The whole indignant hysteria around the assumption that the questioning of / not acting immediately on an advisory referendum = anti democratic claims is another clear indicator of blinkered, anachronistic, selfishness. And a clear indication of a lack of insight into what parliamentary democracy actually is and how it operates in the U.K.
    And what about the whole business of challenging the Government in court, massive change in the Speaker's role, and the HUGE sense of pissed-off-with-politicians in the country?

    And IIRC both main parties committed to implementing the result of the referendum. Of course when they said that they didn't anticipate getting the answer that came back, is that the equivalent of crossing your fingers when you promise?

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  3. #17
    Should Get Out More Cousin Jack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Screwdriver View Post
    Yes but of course, the result of the referendum is just the tip of the iceberg. Cameron was elected on the promise of delivering a once in a generation opportunity to escape from the EU, as Prime Minister he promised to act on the result and we were even told at the time what a disaster it would be to leave because of the risk of leaving on WTO terms.
    I am trying NOT to get sucked into Brexit/Remain. IMO this is bigger and more serious than that - our entire unwritten constitution, based on precedent, is in danger.

    The Speaker is unopposed in elections, and has tremendous power in debates. In return they are impartial. Except Bercow hasn't been.

    Governments govern, Parliament approves or rejects bills. Except now Parliament is trying to govern.

    Referenda are rare events, and Governments implement the result. Parliament are now frustrating that.

    Politics and the Law are very separate. Politicians do not influence judges, judges do not meddle in politics. That water is now very muddy indeed.

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  5. #18
    Should Get Out More balbas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Personally I don't think that trying to honour (what on the face of it appears to be) the democratically expressed will of the population through (what on the face of it appears to be - standfast the supreme court's judgement) undemocratic means is in itself democratic.

    Personally I don't believe that attempting to thwart (what on the face of it appears to be) the democratically expressed will of the population through the use of democratic means is in itself democratic.

    In summary I don't believe that parliament is covering itself in glory. Indeed the whole thing is exceptionally unedifying.

    Is democracy dead? No, but it's quite bruised and has a couple of pretty serious ( it not life threatening - yet) stab wounds.

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    Should Get Out More Kneerly Down's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    What CJ said.
    I've also seen a big shift in the House of Lords, that predates the Brexit saga quite a bit.
    The HoL is supposed to be a revising chamber, ensuring that laws are properly considered and make 'good law'.
    The Salisbury Convention is (or, sadly, more likely, was) that the HoL don't vote down any law that is in accordance with Government manifesto commitments, not that the Government is being allowed to put forward its bills by the current Speaker.
    The HoL is much more a political chamber now, which is a dangerous position.
    I don't think having an elected chamber is anything like an answer to it.

  7. #20
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by balbas View Post
    Is democracy dead? No, but it's quite bruised and has a couple of pretty serious ( it not life threatening - yet) stab wounds.
    As unintended consequences go, the current disarray and embarrassing self-serving charades, with the apparent suicide of entire parties, are quite incredible.

    Perhaps this will, after a period of incredible turmoil, lead to the construction of something better. People will feel that they can challenge their representatives and hold them accountable.

    But from previous experience of working within a representative group, trying to get support and involvement was nigh on impossible, so I don't hold much hope.

    Anyway, as always MP esq has something suitable:


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    Should Get Out More slowsider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Jack View Post

    Politics and the Law are very separate. Politicians do not influence judges, judges do not meddle in politics. That water is now very muddy indeed.
    judges are not meddling in politics - the leader of a minority government tried to close down parliament to stifle debate and prevent it performing its duties. The judges may decide that that is undemocratic. we shall see.

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  10. #22
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowsider View Post
    judges are not meddling in politics - the leader of a minority government tried to close down parliament to stifle debate and prevent it performing its duties. The judges may decide that that is undemocratic. we shall see.
    According to The Times:

    "Stay neutral, Boris Johnson tells Supreme Court
    Prime minister warns judges"

    His recent track record of achieving results by issuing warnings hasn't worked. I wonder whether the judges will feel threatened?

    And:

    Daniel Finklestein: "... may mark the moment Britain stopped being a political democracy restrained by law, and became a legal democracy tempered by politics."

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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    This whole thread is a bit "I'm not getting what I want, therefore the whole system is broken"

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  13. #24
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian_Boolean View Post
    This whole thread is a bit "I'm not getting what I want, therefore the whole system is broken"
    Is anyone getting what they want out of politics at the moment?

    For me it looks unsatisfactory from any angle. I don't think any of the parties are acting particularly honourably.

    SNP, nope
    Welsh, nope
    Libs, nope
    Reds, nope
    Blues, nope most definitely not
    Greens - dunno, maybe their one MP is acting honourably, but she's never in the news so I wouldn't know.
    DUP, appear to be bigoted idiots even ignoring the Brexit question.
    Sinn Fein, don't make me laugh......

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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by balbas View Post
    Is anyone getting what they want out of politics at the moment?

    For me it looks unsatisfactory from any angle. I don't think any of the parties are acting particularly honourably.

    SNP, nope
    Welsh, nope
    Libs, nope
    Reds, nope
    Blues, nope most definitely not
    Greens - dunno, maybe their one MP is acting honourably, but she's never in the news so I wouldn't know.
    DUP, appear to be bigoted idiots even ignoring the Brexit question.
    Sinn Fein, don't make me laugh......

    Difficult though - we can't even agree in what we want a politician to be, let alone what we want them to actually do.

  16. #26
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    European style democracy- keep voting until you give the right answer.

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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian_Boolean View Post
    This whole thread is a bit "I'm not getting what I want, therefore the whole system is broken"
    Indeed, perhaps we should vote on it?

    Oh hang on, we did vote on it and the people who lost the vote want another vote. The politicians whose job it is to enact the will of the people as expressed in a democracy have decided they don't like the result either.

    But I have to say, as a die hard Brexiter and someone who fully expects the UK to leave the EU and all controlling ties, I haven't felt the need to protest yet. Despite all of the delays, shenanigans and legal battles to have this decision overruled by a vocal minority, we are still being promised a Brexit. If our government reneges on the decision and we remain in the EU - then we discover what 17.4 million people think of that idea.

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    Should Get Out More slowsider's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Continuity Brexiteers?

  19. #29
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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Jack View Post
    And what about the whole business of challenging the Government in court, massive change in the Speaker's role, and the HUGE sense of pissed-off-with-politicians in the country?

    And IIRC both main parties committed to implementing the result of the referendum. Of course when they said that they didn't anticipate getting the answer that came back, is that the equivalent of crossing your fingers when you promise?
    Yes.

    But as we are English, we will continue to bumble around and do fuck all about it as we are too scared of change.

    We will get further and further into the shit storm of Democracy and not until the shit has fully hit the fan will people up rise and demand change, but by that time the country will be too fucked and we will have to work hard to get back on top whilst all the people that have caused the issues sit back on an island pointing and laughing at how stupid it's electorate was!

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    Default Re: Is democracy dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by balbas View Post
    Is anyone getting what they want out of politics at the moment?

    For me it looks unsatisfactory from any angle. I don't think any of the parties are acting particularly honourably.

    SNP, nope
    Welsh, nope
    Libs, nope
    Reds, nope
    Blues, nope most definitely not
    Greens - dunno, maybe their one MP is acting honourably, but she's never in the news so I wouldn't know.
    DUP, appear to be bigoted idiots even ignoring the Brexit question.
    Sinn Fein, don't make me laugh......
    No Brexit party?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48417228


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