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Thread: Why do you fit extra lights?

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Which is why dipped beam - 'projector' type in particular (IMHO) - are 'poor' for conspicuity purposes - they're specifically designed NOT to be bright for other road users. Proper DRLs have diffuse light scatter.
    Which is why the police bikes with DRLs in the 70s and 80s used a modded reversing light


    Basic misunderstandings of 'conspicuity'*, what the rider thinks the lights can achieve, and what is actually likely to happen.

    *
    'Visible' - is it in line of sight, can you see it if asked to look for it?
    Attention conspicuity - high contrast etc, attracts your attention
    Search conspicuity - gets your attention if you're asked to look for it
    Cognitive conspicuity - you have an understanding of what you are seeing
    Excellent explanation.
    I have never used a better bike headlamp than the Cibie 'Z beam'. One of the magazines tested a variety of headlamps - the Z had better range on dipped beam than a standard Yamaha 750 on full beam!
    Fitted one to the 400-F... was blown away by how good it was.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by slowsider View Post
    Do most fit them for discrimination - in ye olden days, bikes used to stand out if they had a light on; perhaps the thinking now is that a triangle of lights signifies 'bike'? If so, the triangle should at least be standardised - two above one or two below one. And/or contrasting colour might help achieve that.
    That has been an area of recent research, since cars started appearing with day driving lights.

    The evidence seems to be coming down in favour of either:

    - weird light patterns - which I happen to think is unworkable, as every manufacturer will see it as their mission to produce a unique 'brand' design - you can already see that happening with scooters. A lot of the places that the lights have been stuck is daft - ends of the bars for example, where they are incredibly vulnerable to damage, or top of the helmet which is that last place you want to place a hard lump
    - lights distinguished by colour - which I suspect is the 'right' answer. It's quick and easy to fit a headlamp cover. I've got yellow covers on two of my three bikes, originally to help the trainee spot me when I was stuck in a queue somewhere behind them. It seems my reasoning that they'd be easier to see actually helps drivers identify bikes too. And out of town, in the dark, it can be removed for vision if that's the main requirement.

    But it won't provide Spin's desired depth perception. I've posted before about setting up an overtake on a dull morning, before the oncoming vehicle was anywhere near inconvenienced, only to find that it was a twin-headlamped quadbike, considerably closer to me than I thought when I perceived it as a distant car. IYSWIM.
    Again, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence about mistaking twin-headlight bikes for cars. I did it myself, years back when one of the very early R1s appeared out of the murk on a gloomy morning. I saw the lights, assumed car a long way off and started to pull out. It was something about the movement of the lights that made me hit the brakes again, and a moment later they resolved themselves into a motorcycle.

    The triangle is supposed to prevent this by providing a different visual signature.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    but I suspect that the research either didn't take into account the backdrop where there are a lot of illuminated vehicles, or the subjects 'learned' that a triangle = bike, which skewed the results.
    In the NZ trials, we had 600 participants, day and night, in varied weather and traffic conditions. Participants were not told about 'bikes' prior to their trial, and not at all during the briefing for the first segment. The second segment just asked that they look for any bikes. Even during the third segment, there were non-trials bikes mixed into the flow.

    https://msac.org.nz/our-work/visibility-project/

    https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/p...ls-NZ-2013.pdf

    Abstract

    Motorcyclists have been shown consistently to be at a high risk of being involved in road collisions (Wulf et al., 1989; Chesham et al., 1991; Horswill & Helman, 2003), and often such collisions involve another vehicle violating the path of a motorcycle at a junction. It is known that two key factors contributing to such collisions are the relatively low conspicuity of motorcyclists, and the relative difficulty that other road users have in judging the time it will take a motorcycle to reach their position (time to collision or TTC) (e.g. Wulf et al., 1989; Horswill et al., 2005).

    Here we report findings from a roadside observation study in which participants were invited to observe a section of road (60kph limit) in Albany Auckland, NZ, while a trial motorcycle was ridden past their position (average approach speed 55.7kph) displaying either a single headlight, a ‘V’ lighting configuration with the headlight and LED lighting on the raised mirrors of the motorcycle, or a ‘Y’ configuration which added LED lighting on the front forks.

    At night, the motorcycle was detected approximately three-quarters of a second earlier with the ‘V’ lighting and approximately one and a quarter seconds earlier with the ‘Y’ lighting than with the headlight alone, but only when the participants were instructed to search the scene for motorcycles (as opposed to reporting the things in the scene that grabbed their attention). At night the ‘V’ and ‘Y’ lighting also led participants to report longer ‘smallest acceptable gaps’ (by approximately half a second and three quarters of a second respectively) in front of the oncoming motorcycle than they did in the ‘headlight only’ condition.

    Daytime detection was much earlier than night time detection, and detection was much earlier when participants were asked specifically to search for motorcycles.


    My bolding.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    The Habit of the Three Invisibles by Henry Gregor Felsen

    etc..
    The fact is that in very few SMIDSYs was the CAR invisible to the rider. In the majority of 'looked but failed to see' collision that result from a driver not seeing the bike, the car was IN CLEAR VIEW when the driver made the error. The rider simply failed to predict what might happen and to take some proactive steps.

    The exceptions are blind entrances and turnings, and vehicles that turn right across the rider's path from behind another vehicle. But even there if we look for 'vision blockers' then we can see this potential problem developing too.

    The moment we start assuming other road users SHOULD see us, we're in trouble. And it doesn't matter whether we think "drivers should look harder" or that they should spot us because of hi-vis or DRLs, we are handing over control to the other road users.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Daytime detection was much earlier than night time detection, and detection was much earlier when participants were asked specifically to search for motorcycles. [/I]

    My bolding.
    I can't find the paper now... might have been Kuhnemann... but he described how quickly subjects intuitively work out the object of a trial. IIRC, they measured how the 'hit' rate increased the more exposures there were.

    As soon as you show people something that is designed to stand out, and it's repeated, they learn that's what they're looking for, and it skews the results.

    So even if you show a very small % of modded motorcycles within a trial, subjects will start to pick them out.

    The only solution is to have a big number of subjects. Was there any statistical support for n=~600?

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    The only solution is to have a big number of subjects. Was there any statistical support for n=~600?
    Probably, we usually do.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian_Boolean View Post
    I've found with twin headlight bikes people are less likely to pull out on me if only one light of two is working, no idea why, maybe it's an asymmetrical thing.

    Possibly because they can a) see a light, AND b) see that it's a motorcycle because they can see the 'unlit' side of the bike to be a bike - as opposed to just seeing light, or two-lights, and thinking it's a car a long way off.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    - lights distinguished by colour - which I suspect is the 'right' answer. It's quick and easy to fit a headlamp cover. I've got yellow covers on two of my three bikes, originally to help the trainee spot me when I was stuck in a queue somewhere behind them. It seems my reasoning that they'd be easier to see actually helps drivers identify bikes too. And out of town, in the dark, it can be removed for vision if that's the main requirement.
    err - hello... is this thing on??

    I've been saying this for years.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Again, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence about mistaking twin-headlight bikes for cars. I did it myself, years back when one of the very early R1s appeared out of the murk on a gloomy morning. I saw the lights, assumed car a long way off and started to pull out. It was something about the movement of the lights that made me hit the brakes again, and a moment later they resolved themselves into a motorcycle.

    The triangle is supposed to prevent this by providing a different visual signature.
    Ties in with drivers mistaking proximity of a motorcycle with a smaller and weaker light, compared to modern car headlights, as being further away.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    I think some bicyclists are even worse, deliberately aiming halogen lights to dazzle.
    Iíve not come across this deliberately, but thereís been an arms race among cycle light manufacturers. Modern cycle lights are increasingly dazzling, with manufacturers seeking ever higher Lumen.

    When threads collide: BSI has failed to update the British Standard for cycle lights since 1986! The standardís so out of date that nobody makes such old fashioned lights anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyclingUK
    The problem for the cyclist today is that there are now very few (if any) lights available on the UK market that were designed and manufactured to conform with BS6201 ...
    Also, flashing cycle lights have been legal since 2005, but thereís no British Standard for them. Presumably BSI didnít consider it profitable enough to develop a suitable British Standard.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    I'm sure I'm not the only person who detests it when some wally has badly setup Ewan and Charlie auxiliary lights.
    Sorry but its a guaranteed full beam from me. Tosspots.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    The fact is that in very few SMIDSYs was the CAR invisible to the rider. In the majority of 'looked but failed to see' collision that result from a driver not seeing the bike, the car was IN CLEAR VIEW when the driver made the error. The rider simply failed to predict what might happen and to take some proactive steps.

    The moment we start assuming other road users SHOULD see us, we're in trouble. And it doesn't matter whether we think "drivers should look harder" or that they should spot us because of hi-vis or DRLs, we are handing over control to the other road users.
    I read it as encouraging riders to think about what the driver is considering. As he ends:

    Quote Originally Posted by HGF
    Being in the right is fine, but it doesn't stop the bleeding.

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by demographic View Post
    I'm sure I'm not the only person who detests it when some wally has badly setup Ewan and Charlie auxiliary lights.
    Sorry but its a guaranteed full beam from me. Tosspots.

    I'm obviously on ignore.....

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceBurner View Post
    I'm obviously on ignore.....
    Switch your auxiliary lights on?

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    Default Re: Why do you fit extra lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    Switch your auxiliary lights on?
    He'll only see them if he's looking!

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