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Thread: Corona Virus

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    Default Re: Corona Virus


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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelnut View Post
    Sweden is the interesting one for me. No lock down, just ask people to use common sense and at the moment it seems to be not too badly hit. Time will tell if it’s a ticking time bomb or not.
    At the moment Sweden has double the deathrate per million than Denmark and four times as many than Norway.

    Skyping with a colleague over there, they're not happy. His village bulldozed a mound across the road in, erected a barrier, locked it. You want in or out, see the mayor.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by irie View Post
    I neither said nor implied anything about the private sector.

    To the contrary, I said that the public health system needs reforming to make it fit for the purpose for present day medical emergencies.
    So we should keep 20k additional capacity ICU beds fully staffed and maintained, just in case?

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    TBF whichever government, with whichever leader would have been damned if they did and damned if they didn't in any scenario, all this is pure conjecture nominally supported by vague statistics, still, it helps to pass the time.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by irie View Post
    Agreed. This medical emergency has laid bare the anachronistic bureaucratic underpinnings of the public health system which has left it horribly unable to rapidly respond to this fast moving epidemic.

    It is an appalling failure which has betrayed the medical front line staff and other workers, but which will no doubt yet again be hidden behind the mantra "Save the NHS", thus saving it from reform.
    Quote Originally Posted by wheelnut View Post
    Yep, the private healthcare system is doing it so much better.

    The NHS has responded brilliantly to this. Both at a high organisational level and at the frontline level. Yes there are logistical issues getting PPE, but it’s a global market and there’s a lot of competition to acquire it at the moment. The lack of PPE isn’t due to some beancounter stopping delivery.

    We could always go to the US model where states are bidding against other for equipment and supplies.

    We have a lot to be thankful in this country as regards healthcare, I’m not sure there’s another country I would rather be at the moment.
    Quote Originally Posted by irie
    I neither said nor implied anything about the private sector.

    To the contrary, I said that the public health system needs reforming to make it fit for the purpose for present day medical emergencies.
    Quote Originally Posted by wheelnut View Post
    So we should keep 20k additional capacity ICU beds fully staffed and maintained, just in case?
    That's not even half respectable

    I'm sure you have your reasons why you are particularly resistant to reforming the public health sector to make it more relevant and responsive to the modern day health threats.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by saga_lout View Post
    This gave me a wry smile:


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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by crust View Post
    At the moment Sweden has double the deathrate per million than Denmark and four times as many than Norway.

    Skyping with a colleague over there, they're not happy. His village bulldozed a mound across the road in, erected a barrier, locked it. You want in or out, see the mayor.
    TBF it Sweden does have nearly twice the population of Denmark or Norway, so the percentages are probably comparable.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by wheelnut View Post
    Yep, the private healthcare system is doing it so much better.

    The NHS has responded brilliantly to this. Both at a high organisational level and at the frontline level. Yes there are logistical issues getting PPE, but itís a global market and thereís a lot of competition to acquire it at the moment. The lack of PPE isnít due to some beancounter stopping delivery.

    We could always go to the US model where states are bidding against other for equipment and supplies.

    We have a lot to be thankful in this country as regards healthcare, Iím not sure thereís another country I would rather be at the moment.
    There isnít a private healthcare system at the moment

    In our hospital the majority of theatre staff are now working at NHS hospitals.

    We had already stopped most activity prior to the shutdown.We had been cancelling pretty much all over 60s surgery and all but the most pressing consultations were by phone or Skype in the preceding weeks.

    We also had temperature screening of anyone entering the site.

    We were all asking wtf are they, the government,waiting for along with anyone in else in healthcare I suspect.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Unfortunately our current dollop of politicians seem to be particularly inept at organising things - or their underlings are. Sitting on their hands and avoiding answering questions seem to be their particular strengths.

    What should they have done:

    1. Logistics - they've been spouting about the Army - great bunch of chaps and chappesses I'm sure, and if you could stop Corona virus with a bullet they'd be the people I'd call. However if I want something quickly I go to a logistics company - say Amazon, DPD (not Yodel - "yer PPE's behind the bins") - experts at their jobs.

    2. Ventilators - go to a ventilator manufacturer, if they are short for parts, then ask the trade federations for help in sourcing, not a tory party member who makes vacuum cleaners, though in defence of vacuum cleaner manufacturers the GTEC design is wonderfully simple and could be made in numbers easily and quickly.

    3. PPE - there's loads of UK manufacturing companies who could make it if they were approached.

    All that material for the Excel centre wasn't in sat in stock, a fair chunk of it was made to order - we swapped tools around and worked nights to make and supply our contribution - it happened because the people in charge knew who to call and they called their suppliers and the suppliers called UK manufacturers. Experts, business people doing what they do best.

    It's a massive disruption to the country - set up a 'War' or 'Pandemic' commission - get industry leaders together, get them working on it together. Get a politician who can cut through the red tape, give them some clout - yes, ventilators have to be approved and if part manufacture has to be outsourced that has to be approved, it shouldn't take months. It does normally, yes but FFS the country is in the shit and getting deeper economically every day, get the right people moving!

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by crust View Post
    Unfortunately our current dollop of politicians seem to be particularly inept at organising things - or their underlings are. Sitting on their hands and avoiding answering questions seem to be their particular strengths.

    What should they have done:

    1. Logistics - they've been spouting about the Army - great bunch of chaps and chappesses I'm sure, and if you could stop Corona virus with a bullet they'd be the people I'd call. However if I want something quickly I go to a logistics company - say Amazon, DPD (not Yodel - "yer PPE's behind the bins") - experts at their jobs.

    2. Ventilators - go to a ventilator manufacturer, if they are short for parts, then ask the trade federations for help in sourcing, not a tory party member who makes vacuum cleaners, though in defence of vacuum cleaner manufacturers the GTEC design is wonderfully simple and could be made in numbers easily and quickly.

    3. PPE - there's loads of UK manufacturing companies who could make it if they were approached.

    All that material for the Excel centre wasn't in sat in stock, a fair chunk of it was made to order - we swapped tools around and worked nights to make and supply our contribution - it happened because the people in charge knew who to call and they called their suppliers and the suppliers called UK manufacturers. Experts, business people doing what they do best.

    It's a massive disruption to the country - set up a 'War' or 'Pandemic' commission - get industry leaders together, get them working on it together. Get a politician who can cut through the red tape, give them some clout - yes, ventilators have to be approved and if part manufacture has to be outsourced that has to be approved, it shouldn't take months. It does normally, yes but FFS the country is in the shit and getting deeper economically every day, get the right people moving!
    Yep we all have degrees in hindsight.......

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by crust View Post
    Unfortunately our current dollop of politicians seem to be particularly inept at organising things - or their underlings are. Sitting on their hands and avoiding answering questions seem to be their particular strengths.

    What should they have done:

    1. Logistics - they've been spouting about the Army - great bunch of chaps and chappesses I'm sure, and if you could stop Corona virus with a bullet they'd be the people I'd call. However if I want something quickly I go to a logistics company - say Amazon, DPD (not Yodel - "yer PPE's behind the bins") - experts at their jobs.

    2. Ventilators - go to a ventilator manufacturer, if they are short for parts, then ask the trade federations for help in sourcing, not a tory party member who makes vacuum cleaners, though in defence of vacuum cleaner manufacturers the GTEC design is wonderfully simple and could be made in numbers easily and quickly.

    3. PPE - there's loads of UK manufacturing companies who could make it if they were approached.

    All that material for the Excel centre wasn't in sat in stock, a fair chunk of it was made to order - we swapped tools around and worked nights to make and supply our contribution - it happened because the people in charge knew who to call and they called their suppliers and the suppliers called UK manufacturers. Experts, business people doing what they do best.

    It's a massive disruption to the country - set up a 'War' or 'Pandemic' commission - get industry leaders together, get them working on it together. Get a politician who can cut through the red tape, give them some clout - yes, ventilators have to be approved and if part manufacture has to be outsourced that has to be approved, it shouldn't take months. It does normally, yes but FFS the country is in the shit and getting deeper economically every day, get the right people moving!
    1. All the existing logistics companies are quite busy what with everyone dodging the shops and buying on line just now. You may have noticed how difficult it is to get a grocery delivery. the armed forces are pretty damned good at logistics. Cant be fighting a war if they run out of ammunition, fuel, food, medical supplies, oh yes, medical supplies..
    2. if the health services of the world dont have enough ventilators what makes you think the manufacturers will have enough stock sitting on the shelf waiting to go? Everyone in the world is trying to buy what is on the shelf or available quick enough to help. No one is buying vacuum cleaners or JCBs just now and staff capable of making them are being laid off at public expense, so makes sense to make use of idle manufacturing capability if it can be turned round it time.
    3. I imagine the were approached and are making and selling everything they can, but same as the ventilators, if a small army of geeks with 3d printers can help out, it makes sense on a number of levels.
    See how easy it is to pull apart some one elses plan? Also note I have made no alternative suggestions, just pulled yours apart. We are no further forward though.
    Never mind the hindsight, What would you do next?

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by chillitt View Post
    1. All the existing logistics companies are quite busy what with everyone dodging the shops and buying on line just now. You may have noticed how difficult it is to get a grocery delivery. the armed forces are pretty damned good at logistics. Cant be fighting a war if they run out of ammunition, fuel, food, medical supplies, oh yes, medical supplies..
    2. if the health services of the world dont have enough ventilators what makes you think the manufacturers will have enough stock sitting on the shelf waiting to go? Everyone in the world is trying to buy what is on the shelf or available quick enough to help. No one is buying vacuum cleaners or JCBs just now and staff capable of making them are being laid off at public expense, so makes sense to make use of idle manufacturing capability if it can be turned round it time.
    3. I imagine the were approached and are making and selling everything they can, but same as the ventilators, if a small army of geeks with 3d printers can help out, it makes sense on a number of levels.
    See how easy it is to pull apart some one elses plan? Also note I have made no alternative suggestions, just pulled yours apart. We are no further forward though.
    Never mind the hindsight, What would you do next?

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by crust View Post
    At the moment Sweden has double the deathrate per million than Denmark and four times as many than Norway.

    Skyping with a colleague over there, they're not happy. His village bulldozed a mound across the road in, erected a barrier, locked it. You want in or out, see the mayor.
    https://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by Wossname View Post
    ....and more seriously - those on here who have had the virus: how did/would/should you have isolated yourselves from other family members within your household, when you knew what was brewing?
    Foal and GF isolated themselves at her house - but they're students, so it's a HOMO. Luckily, a downstairs bathroom was available, so designated 'theirs'. They had a post-it note sign system for indicating whether the kitchen was in use, then clean afterwards.

    Of those others in the house, one other caught it.

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by Wossname View Post
    ....and more seriously - those on here who have had the virus: how did/would/should you have isolated yourselves from other family members within your household, when you knew what was brewing?

    Mrs W and I (now both in the vulnerable category for various reasons which don't normally have any real significance in daily life) live "intimate" lives together. We do everything in close proximity, always have, hopefully always will. If one of us gets infected and affected, it is certain that both have already been exposed. So it would seem that isolating - eating/sleeping/everything else apart - at that stage would be pointless in risk-reduction terms. And if one of us doesn't make it, we would want as much time together as poss.

    How would/should/did you do it?
    I've got it (I think, I have all of the symptoms but haven't been tested - obviously). I'm probably the highest risk in the family, on the basis that it doesn't seem to have a major impact on children and my wife is a few years younger than me and as a woman is statistically at lower risk of morbidity anyway. But, any risk that could be removed we should remove is the view we took. Aside from anything else, it's bloody 'orrible and I wouldn't want to put anyone else through it, but if they are going to get it, then it makes sense for us to stagger it so we can look after each other / the kids.

    So...

    My wife's moved into the spare room. We don't have an ensuite (because they're exceptionally gauche), but we do have a sink in the bedroom, so I've access to mains fed fresh (cold) water and of course hot water also. So that means I can hydrate, wash, shave, brush my teeth etc and also that I can wash my hands before I leave the room. The only reason I am leaving the room is to use the loo. Everything else I can achieve in the bedroom. When I do go to the loo, I wash my hands before leaving [edit] the bedroom [/edit], and then wipe everything in the bathroom down with a bleach solution before washing my hands again and returning to the bedroom.

    My wife is leaving cups of tea and food outside of the door and is collecting the empties once a day, after which they're loaded straight into the dishwasher.

    I can see and hear the kids and my wife outside playing / working in the garden and I'd dearly love to be out there with them, but I'm going to stay here as long as I need to. I've had a conversation with them all through the window today, and I'll spend some time on zoom with my wife tonight. I have to work away from home on a semi regular basis, so it's actually not that different for us to be honest.

    I seriously considered moving a camp cot into the garage, in order to completely separate myself, but that would probably have increased risk, as I would have needed to come back into the house to use the loo or get water.

    It takes a bit of discipline, but it's really not *that* bad when you get used to it. And it's worth doing, because even if you're in a high risk category, that puts your risk of morbidity up, but doesn't guarantee that you'll die, so you're giving yourselves the best chance of spending lots more time with your partner by trying to prevent them getting this than not.
    Last edited by balbas; 11-04-20 at 16:57. Reason: addition for clarity

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    Default Re: Corona Virus

    Quote Originally Posted by chillitt View Post
    1. All the existing logistics companies are quite busy what with everyone dodging the shops and buying on line just now. You may have noticed how difficult it is to get a grocery delivery. the armed forces are pretty damned good at logistics. Cant be fighting a war if they run out of ammunition, fuel, food, medical supplies, oh yes, medical supplies..

    I wasn't suggesting using Tesco or Ocado, I was suggesting logistics companies, very different, they do deliveries all over the UK every day, unlike the Army who don't. They have massive computerised warehouses designed to shift material quickly and easily. We're in a national emergency, they can shut shops, beaches etc, you would think they could persuade these companies to do urgent NHS deliveries instead of crap bored people are ordering. Our logistics supplier (massive) has already offered, rejected. And no, they're not busy because a lot of stuff is sold out, people are watching their pennies as a lot are not earning and they're furloughing staff.

    2. if the health services of the world dont have enough ventilators what makes you think the manufacturers will have enough stock sitting on the shelf waiting to go? Everyone in the world is trying to buy what is on the shelf or available quick enough to help. No one is buying vacuum cleaners or JCBs just now and staff capable of making them are being laid off at public expense, so makes sense to make use of idle manufacturing capability if it can be turned round it time.

    Are you deliberately being obtuse? Ventilator manufacturers don't have stock, correct but they have the expertise to make ventilators, they have the expertise to help other manufacturers to make ventilators, source component parts to make ventilators, right here in the UK, not in Malaysia. However, they are not being approached, in fact they're exporting ventilators because there's no co-ordinated UK government approach.

    3. I imagine the were approached and are making and selling everything they can, but same as the ventilators, if a small army of geeks with 3d printers can help out, it makes sense on a number of levels.

    If they were approached then there wouldn't be a shortage would there, they are not being approached, there's no central organisation - let's call it a government - approaching them.

    See how easy it is to pull apart some one elses plan? Also note I have made no alternative suggestions, just pulled yours apart. We are no further forward though.
    Never mind the hindsight, What would you do next?
    You've done nothing of the sort, I haven't put forward a plan, just a complaint that the government aren't actually 'doing' anything to organise a focused approach to the direct needs of the country. This is not hindsight, its right here, right now sight.

    What would I do? I learn from past experience of what to do in a national crisis when materials and equipment were urgently needed - set up a Pandemic ministry - get experts from business in to organise a focused approach to solving the problems.

    When they wanted a four thousand bed hospital they reached out to Industry, Industry reacted and it was done. Very quickly.

    They need PPE - great that people with 3D printers are doing them, but there's a plastics industry out there with machines that can make them quicker, no one in government has co-ordinated them into making PPE, I know because we've asked. Handcock says they've got plenty, hospitals say they haven't.

    There's still a very large UK manufacturing Industry, it's not being utilised at a time when the country needs it most, right now, instead it's being furloughed. That's not hindsight that's criminal negligence.

    BTW, there's a very large logistics company called Brakes, they normally service the Pub and restaurant trade, all of which are now closed, I drove past their premises the other day, hundreds of lorries sat doing nothing, drivers furloughed at the tax payers expense. They could be delivering supplies to hospitals in vehicles designed for deliveries on UK roads not battlefields.

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