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Thread: Airbags

  1. #241
    Should Get Out More Noggin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Airbags


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Having had to sit through a three hour exam at uni with blood running down my leg after crashing in jeans on the way into college, then having to attend the medical centre to have the wound cleaned up (ouch), I've always got something abrasion-resistant on.
    I'm less sensible! And also have never ever found any knee armour in any bike gear comfortable! If the armour itself is comfortable then something about the 'pocket' it lives in isn't. In the last few pairs of amoured/roadproof jeans I've bought, apart from not being quite in the right place, the seams scratch me and the little velcro tab to close it actually cut me on tow pairs - same on hip armour! I do sometimes wear the proper jeans but without the armour!!


    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    If 'more relaxed' = 'less vigilant' then we're heading towards what I was talking about when I mentioned Risk Compensation. It doesn't have to be, but the moment someone says "I feel safer in my XYZ riding kit", then I always wonder, "and how will that feeling of being safer change your riding?"
    No, not less vigilant. More relaxed as in comfortable and able to concentrate on the ride without something uncomfortable distracting the mind!

    I don't ever feel safer in the gear as such. I feel comfortable in what I wear which allows me to concentrate on what I'm doing. I ride the same in what ever I wear, so the more protective stuff I wear doesn't change what I do - unless its uncomfortable in which can not only do I slow down but I'm distracted because I can't concentrate

    A big factor to my crash was not my gear but I'd had a ridiculously huge lunch with friends (she is a feeder!! So we all ate too much!). I should have sat around for a couple of hours before leaving but I didn't. So I felt uncomfortable leaning over the tank. I'm guessing that that lack of comfort was distracting, even though I didn't think so at the time



    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    Someone turned up on one of my courses with a Leatt brace. We had a bit of a chat about what he hoped it would achieve. "Nothing much in a really serious crash" he said, "but if I crash at low speed again, it might protect my existing neck injury".
    Yup - I'm looking at not making the injury worse. I have a mesh body armour top that goes under jackets that the mountain bike guys up here wear. Sadly at the moment the armour on the right side restricts my movement, so I don't wear it on the bike. If I ski more during open times this year (rather then walking and skiing before the lifts are open) then I'll probably try it then. I'm far more wary of hurting myself (my arm) by being taken out by someone else than I am of falling on my own!!

  2. #242
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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    It's hardly likely a back protector would have prevented the spine injury (because it was caused by landing on my coccyx) or the knee injury (caused by twisting). But my guess is that if I'd been using body armour and wearing an airbag, at least some of that heavy bruising around the shoulders would have been prevented.
    The Pro-Tek jacket (see below) had a coccyx pad I tested it once, from low speed on a patch of ice in a car park I think some of the airbags go quite low (Hit Air, possibly).

    Talking of twisting, I'm sure I read somewhere that a lot of spinal injuries are as a result of twisting from a shoulder impact. Extra airbag cushioning might reduce that in a way that (might, possibly, could, etc.) close-fitting armour might not.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    My best guess is that a body-hugging undergarment with the armour attached is probably going to be superior to armour in the jacket and trousers.
    Remember the Pro-Tek suits that came out in about 1988? They had a Thinsulate (or mesh option) underjacket (like an anorak). The armour went on the outside of that, held by Velcro, so you set it exactly where it needed to be. Then that liner fitted inside the waterproof outer.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    after crashing in jeans on the way into college, then having to attend the medical centre to have the wound cleaned up (ouch), I've always got something abrasion-resistant on.
    I was given a lecture by a consultant (who subsequently did my carpal tunnel ops) about how nasty denim is in wounds, I decided to buy a one piece suit to force me to wear an extra layer even on short journeys

  3. #243
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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by Noggin View Post
    I'm less sensible! And also have never ever found any knee armour in any bike gear comfortable! If the armour itself is comfortable then something about the 'pocket' it lives in isn't. In the last few pairs of amoured/roadproof jeans I've bought, apart from not being quite in the right place, the seams scratch me and the little velcro tab to close it actually cut me on tow pairs - same on hip armour! I do sometimes wear the proper jeans but without the armour!!
    My track leathers are like that. The cotton line bunches up around the seams and the velcro tabs are horrid. Fortunately, I rarely wear the suit for long.

    No, not less vigilant. More relaxed as in comfortable and able to concentrate on the ride without something uncomfortable distracting the mind!... I feel comfortable in what I wear which allows me to concentrate on what I'm doing. I ride the same in what ever I wear, so the more protective stuff I wear doesn't change what I do - unless its uncomfortable in which can not only do I slow down but I'm distracted because I can't concentrate
    Which is why I wrote 'if'... Having comfortable kit is vitally important - it's especially noticeable with helmets that a bit of pressure in the wrong place is barely noticeable when trying them on, and excruciating at the end of an 8 hour day.

    I don't ever feel safer in the gear as such.
    But a lot of people do. Read the testimonials on any site that sells safety kit (assuming they're not made-up of course )

    [/QUOTE]A big factor to my crash was not my gear but I'd had a ridiculously huge lunch with friends (she is a feeder!! So we all ate too much!). I should have sat around for a couple of hours before leaving but I didn't. So I felt uncomfortable leaning over the tank. I'm guessing that that lack of comfort was distracting, even though I didn't think so at the time[/QUOTE]

    Oops... a big meal also diverts blood from the brain to the gut, which means we not mentally firing on all cylinders either.


    Yup - I'm looking at not making the injury worse. I have a mesh body armour top that goes under jackets that the mountain bike guys up here wear. Sadly at the moment the armour on the right side restricts my movement, so I don't wear it on the bike. If I ski more during open times this year (rather then walking and skiing before the lifts are open) then I'll probably try it then. I'm far more wary of hurting myself (my arm) by being taken out by someone else than I am of falling on my own!!


    Hope things improve soon.

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  5. #244
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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by Horse View Post
    The Pro-Tek jacket (see below) had a coccyx pad I tested it once, from low speed on a patch of ice in a car park I think some of the airbags go quite low (Hit Air, possibly).
    The problem is "how much energy can it disperse?". From a highside, I was probably falling from the height of a typical ladder. I don't know if the fact that the damage was several vertebrae up is significant.

    Talking of twisting, I'm sure I read somewhere that a lot of spinal injuries are as a result of twisting from a shoulder impact. Extra airbag cushioning might reduce that in a way that (might, possibly, could, etc.) close-fitting armour might not.
    Possible, I guess.

    Remember the Pro-Tek suits that came out in about 1988? They had a Thinsulate (or mesh option) underjacket (like an anorak). The armour went on the outside of that, held by Velcro, so you set it exactly where it needed to be. Then that liner fitted inside the waterproof outer.
    I do - I wanted one. But a few years later, I bought an Aerostich instead.

    I was given a lecture by a consultant (who subsequently did my carpal tunnel ops) about how nasty denim is in wounds, I decided to buy a one piece suit to force me to wear an extra layer even on short journeys
    Oddly enough, when duelling with pistols, silk shirts were worn for this reason

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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    The problem is "how much energy can it disperse?". From a highside, I was probably falling from the height of a typical ladder. I don't know if the fact that the damage was several vertebrae up is significant.
    I only landed from seat height And it was the early days of 'armour' too, it was like something cut from a camping mat. The main (elbows, knees, etc.) were dual layer and the back protector had a more rigid carapace layer.

    But it was probably more comfy than it would have been without it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nick h. View Post
    many avoidable bike smashes end in tears because the rider can't do the logical thinking bit, freezes up and doesn't brake. To overcome this you need to practice losing control then regaining it. You can't be an expert in road riding without this skill. GP racing was revolutionised in the 70s/80s when riders started going to Kenny Roberts' ranch to learn how to slide. Now they all do it. We need it just as much, unless we're satisfied with chugging around slowly on a Harley. The latest ABS and anti-slip can help a lot, but people still freeze even with ABS. They need training and practice to get the confidence to beat the fear so they can make an attempt to avert disaster.
    I thought ABS prevented sliding. How can you learn the essential skill if the bike won't slide ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slowsider View Post
    I thought ABS prevented sliding. How can you learn the essential skill if the bike won't slide ?
    You might also ask how practising 'losing control and regaining it' actually helps when the problem is freezing and not braking in the first place.

    If the problem was 'locking up and freezing', it might help.

    But if you've got ABS you just learn to use that - by applying the brakes till it kicks in (which is actually surprisingly difficult on a half-decent surface).

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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post

    Which is why I wrote 'if'... Having comfortable kit is vitally important - it's especially noticeable with helmets that a bit of pressure in the wrong place is barely noticeable when trying them on, and excruciating at the end of an 8 hour day.
    Learnt that one the hard way


    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor;2960263But a lot of people do. Read the testimonials on any site that sells safety kit (assuming they're not made-up of course ;) )[/QUOTE

    This is true. And I've heard people say it too!!


    A big factor to my crash was not my gear but I'd had a ridiculously huge lunch with friends (she is a feeder!! So we all ate too much!). I should have sat around for a couple of hours before leaving but I didn't. So I felt uncomfortable leaning over the tank. I'm guessing that that lack of comfort was distracting, even though I didn't think so at the time
    Oops... a big meal also diverts blood from the brain to the gut, which means we not mentally firing on all cylinders either.[/QUOTE]



    Yeah - and I do/did know better



    [QUOTE=The Spin Doctor;2960263

    Hope things improve soon.[/QUOTE]

    Sadly it seems it's unlikely without further intervention! Find out more on 29th

  10. #249
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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor View Post
    You might also ask how practising 'losing control and regaining it' actually helps when the problem is freezing and not braking in the first place.

    If the problem was 'locking up and freezing', it might help.

    But if you've got ABS you just learn to use that - by applying the brakes till it kicks in (which is actually surprisingly difficult on a half-decent surface).
    We used to encourage - almost force - trainees to test their ABS. On the surface we used (block paved) it actually required deliberately braking badly (rear only, clutch in, stamp). Worse still for our trainees was that they typically had years of 'release and reapply', whereas ABS is best used (once it kicks in) by keeping the brakes applied.

    Then, after that session, the advice was 'brake normally, brake well, forget it's there'.

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    Default Re: Airbags

    Quote Originally Posted by nick h. View Post
    All this logical thinking is a start. It's the kind of thing you learn in advanced training on the road. But it might not help when the unexpected happens. If you're serious about staying alive and out of a wheelchair you need to learn to instinctively control the bike in situations when inexperienced riders tend to freeze. Freezing up has been researched a lot. I don't have any links handy, but many avoidable bike smashes end in tears because the rider can't do the logical thinking bit, freezes up and doesn't brake. To overcome this you need to practice losing control then regaining it. You can't be an expert in road riding without this skill.
    I think you're both right and wrong here. Right in that hazard perception (for want of a more encompassing term) and rehearsing skills are both valuable, but wrong in that 'advanced' training and off-road riding are necessarily the ways to achieve them.

    FWIW, DSA (as they were then) did a really good video (yes, on VHS) called 'What if?', which was intended for learner drivers. If we want drivers and riders undertaking that sort of planning, they need to be encouraged and shown how at 'L' level, not wait until after their test, then on the possibility that they might take post-test training.

    And for off-road skills, there's research to show that those skills 'age' if not practiced. Plus, for many reasons (financial, facilities, etc.), it's never going to happen that every learner driver gets to attend a suitable, evidence-based. off-road skills course.

    However, you're also right that that you can't do it on public roads. Well, not physically. But mentally you can - you can visualise situations and mentally prepare.

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