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Thread: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

  1. #31
    Should Get Out More KorkyKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'


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    It would be even better if the Courts of this country were able to implement the laws of this land without any interference from non elected and non accountable members of other judiciaries. Should people be dissatisfied with our laws or wish to improve them the democratic solution lies in the ballot box.

    This isn't about knee jerks, left or right politics nor pro or anti-EU it is about a nation having sovereignty over its governance and own judiciary. Self determination.

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    Should Get Out More BananaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    I think it's right to say that people should not be locked up with no possibility of release, ever.
    I also think it's wrong to kill people for any reason, even if they have killed someone.

    So, yes, there. I've said it. I don't think that absolutely every murderer should be locked away for ever. Some should though. But I think most of those are psychiatric cases.

    Ever-more cruel and unusual punishments are not going to stop murder happening.

    Only education can do that. And community.

    And good quality muesli, yoghurt and camomile tea, as part of a calorie - controlled diet.


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    Should Get Out More Reburner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    I'm with BM (apart from the last line of hippy shit)

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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaMan View Post
    I think it's right to say that people should not be locked up with no possibility of release, ever.
    Would you care to explain your moral reasoning? Would you care to explain why you would confer certain rights on individuals who have committed vile acts which all reasonable members of society feel are an affront to their rights to be able to live a life without fear of being killed?

    Take for example Constables Hughes and Bone. Do you think it right that Cregan should be allowed to have a case review and consideration for parole? On a continuum where would a criminal lose all rights to have a case review? Somebody who had killed one? What about somebody who killed twenty people? Should they have the rights of a review?

    Are you not making a mockery of both convictions and sentencing as laid down in law? Maybe you should stand as a politician with your main policy being to advocate the release of murderers back into the community.

  5. #35
    Should Get Out More moth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaMan View Post

    So, yes, there. I've said it. I don't think that absolutely every murderer should be locked away for ever. Some should though. But I think most of those are psychiatric cases.
    Who decides? You? Me? Popular opinion? The British judicial system? The ECHR?

    Ever-more cruel and unusual punishments are not going to stop murder happening.

    Only education can do that. And community.
    Education and 'community' (whatever the fuck that is) have been available for decades, but people are still killing people. So that doesn't seem to be working does it?

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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaMan View Post
    I think it's right to say that people should not be locked up with no possibility of release, ever.
    I also think it's wrong to kill people for any reason, even if they have killed someone.

    So, yes, there. I've said it. I don't think that absolutely every murderer should be locked away for ever. Some should though. But I think most of those are psychiatric cases.

    Ever-more cruel and unusual punishments are not going to stop murder happening.

    Only education can do that. And community.

    And good quality muesli, yoghurt and camomile tea, as part of a calorie - controlled diet.

    I think people should be killed for abusing / beating children to death

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ttery-win.html

    the legal system is soft anyway, as others have said, life rarely means life

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    Should Get Out More BananaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by KorkyKat View Post
    Would you care to explain your moral reasoning? Would you care to explain why you would confer certain rights on individuals who have committed vile acts which all reasonable members of society feel are an affront to their rights to be able to live a life without fear of being killed?
    There is no such thing, as "an individual". We are a community, intertwined. Symbiotic.

    Humanity is just one part of a long chain. Plankton became jellyfish became molluscs became arthropods became fish became amphibians became reptiles became mammals became ... humans ...

    All the genes are shared, right across the ecosystem, Earth's biosphere.

    We have cerebrospinal systems which some of us can use to tune-in, to the Blessed Quantum Field. That which underpins all of creation. Some can hear, some can see, some can feel.

    Taking life is more fundamental than you can imagine. It is paranoia in the extreme. But it is not always unnatural. And not irremediable.

    We cannot bring back people who are murdered. But the many influences they will have had, through their lives, can prevail. Ripples, in Time.

    The dreadful crevasses which some people fall down, need to be avoided. We need to build bridges, and find the right paths. There are people who can be guides, and sherpas.

    There are people with grace.







    Quote Originally Posted by Korkykat
    Take for example Constables Hughes and Bone. Do you think it right that Cregan should be allowed to have a case review and consideration for parole?
    I think you are trying to defeat me with a carefully selected emotive example.
    That will not work - I am talking about a principle.

    The short answer is : yes. Eventually. Not for a long time. And not with an unconditional release. But I have just said I think all murderers should eventually get that sort of chance, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korkykat
    On a continuum where would a criminal lose all rights to have a case review? Somebody who had killed one? What about somebody who killed twenty people? Should they have the rights of a review?
    Yes. Unless there are clear requirements for psychiatric treatment, they should all get a review.

    Less so if the murder was planned / premeditated. Less so if it was eg in the course of another crime. Less so if it was multiple. Much less so if it was done for sexual gratification, and so on. Clearly. But, no, I don't think there are any cases where sane people should have NO chance of ever being released.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korkykat
    Are you not making a mockery of both convictions and sentencing as laid down in law? Maybe you should stand as a politician with your main policy being to advocate the release of murderers back into the community.
    You're being very silly, I think. I'm not making a mockery of anything. I actually think quite a lot of sentences are too short, for murder and rape, and some other violent crimes. But I think people who think there should never be any looking at such things again, are being just a bit silly ... even in the worst cases of child murder etc., I think some killers might, perhaps, after several decades, become reformed and repentant enough to let out. Might be able to do good work with that, in other contexts ( eg advising social services / whatever, to protect at least some children in future generations ). I think that's a vanishingly small proportion, so most of them would very probably stay in jail. Good. But it only needs one reformed character, to justify having occasional hearings of such things. Doesn't it ?



    Quote Originally Posted by moth View Post
    Education and 'community' (whatever the fuck that is) have been available for decades, but people are still killing people. So that doesn't seem to be working does it?
    Um. Well, jailing people for life, and indeed killing them, doesn't seem to be working either. Does it ?

    Do you see what you've done there ?

    Hmm ?


  8. #38
    Should Get Out More moth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaMan View Post

    Um. Well, jailing people for life, and indeed killing them, doesn't seem to be working either. Does it ?

    Do you see what you've done there ?

    Hmm ?


    It's a bit of a dichotomy innit?

    Hmmm?

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    Should Get Out More BananaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by moth View Post
    It's a bit of a dichotomy innit?
    I had a dichotomy once. I had to go private

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    No BM. You can not apply atonement, forgiveness, repentance or anything else for two reasons:

    1. When the death penalty was abolished it was replaced with whole life sentences for murders such as those committed by the likes of Cregan, Brady et al. It is meant to be a deterrent. Clearly it works because only a rerlatively few commit such evil acts.

    2. You, by conferring rights to a killer, are negating the rights of people who cherish the sanctity of life. In sum, you are saying to potential criminals that there will be a chance that they will eventually be released.

    The ultimate punishment for not recognising the sanctity of life should be the loss of all freedoms and rights.

    If you don't wish to lose these freedoms and rights then quite simply do not kill another human being.

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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by Taipan View Post
    The Bamber case is interesting. Not sure that is a safe conviction any more, although I base that on a biased in his favour program.
    Funnily enough after spending a day with one of the original investigation team and being given access to a lot of the photos, evidence and statements i think he is slam fucking dunk guilty and should be allowed to keep applying for case review after case review as there are pieces of evidence he cannot physically ever counteract

  12. #42
    Should Get Out More BananaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by KorkyKat View Post
    ... Clearly it works because only a rerlatively few commit such evil acts.

    2. You, by conferring rights to a killer, are negating the rights of people who cherish the sanctity of life. In sum...
    I cannot confer rights. They cannot be conferred, in terms of the natural law. They are part of the framework of our universe.

    It's like I can't confer gravity. Or propose electromagnetism. Or amend the pauli exclusion principle.

    When you say "relatively few" commit murder ... relative to what ? To a lot of people doing more of it ?

    It is not permissible, to my mind, that human consciousnesses can get themselves in a state where violence of any kind is the only option. For any reason, including retributive justice.

    We need to be better than that. Need in the sense in which that word ( and 'Necessity' ) is used in Doris Lessing's Canopus-in-Argos novels.

    Deep in the underlying framework of creation, there are good, sound, ways for people to be in harmony with their environment, and to thrive and enjoy their understanding of the world, and their mutual celebration of life.

    And there is Shammat, the devil. At the end of days, people will go through a period where they are immune to truth, and cannot even recognise that they are being told lies. But then, there will come ... a rebalancing.


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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    You do yourself a disservice by writing such drivel.

    I suggest you read the U.N. Declaration Of Human Rights if you wish to familiarise yourself with Human Rights. In particular Articles 1, 3 and 8.

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    Should Get Out More BananaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by KorkyKat View Post
    You do yourself a disservice by writing such drivel.
    Well that's not very nice.











    You do yourself a bigger one.


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    Should Get Out More Yambo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Killers' life terms 'breach their human rights'

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaMan View Post
    I cannot confer rights. They cannot be conferred, in terms of the natural law. They are part of the framework of our universe.

    As soon as humans developed societies they conferred rights and responsibilities. What tosh.

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